Should I Title This Tool or Dream Theater?

[metropolis_4]

I think there’s some confusion over “technical”. The music is technical, the individual techniques are not. There’s speed in there, but again, the actual technique isn’t technically challenging to play.

Like if this were guitar playing, a sweep/tapping lick is something many players would find technically challenging to play, but playing a scale fast up and down the neck isn’t really a technical challenge as much as it is a speed challenge. The fills, grooves and rhythms are fairly basic things, with a shitload of personality and speed added to them. I’m not sure how else to phrase it.

Technique isn’t speed, speed is just one small aspect of technique.

With drums there is a considerable amount of technique that goes into just hitting a gong once, or playing one note on a timpani.

Things like “isn’t technically challenging to play” is entirely relative to what you’re comparing against. In this case what I’m saying is if you compare that song to other rock music I’d say it’s in the upper tier of what is technical and complex within that style, and if it’s in the upper tier of technical for its style I don’t think I would call it not technical.

If that is simple and not technical what does that make Back in Black?

 

[Ed DeGenaro]

I think there’s some confusion over “technical”. The music is technical, the individual techniques are not. There’s speed in there, but again, the actual technique isn’t technically challenging to play.

Like if this were guitar playing, a sweep/tapping lick is something many players would find technically challenging to play, but playing a scale fast up and down the neck isn’t really a technical challenge as much as it is a speed challenge. The fills, grooves and rhythms are fairly basic things, with a shitload of personality and speed added to them. I’m not sure how else to phrase it.

That’s interesting view, to me those things are articulations.

I give an example I have to yet hear Rock guys get something like this right…

turn around lick

turn around lick

www.soundslice.com

 

[DrewJD82]

Technique isn’t speed, speed is just one small aspect of technique.

With drums there is a considerable amount of technique that goes into just hitting a gong once, or playing one note on a timpani.

Things like “isn’t technically challenging to play” is entirely relative to what you’re comparing against. In this case what I’m saying is if you compare that song to other rock music I’d say it’s in the upper tier of what is technical and complex within that style, and if it’s in the upper tier of technical for its style I don’t think I would call it not technical.

If that is simple and not technical what does that make Back in Black?

You’re talking about the composition of the song, I’m talking about the technique of playing the actual parts, the physical movements his limbs are making and he mental focus required to physically play the parts, not memorize changes or count.

Tool songs are complex songs, but the guitar parts are not technically challenging to play. That is the best example I can make of what I’m talking about.

 

[metropolis_4]

You’re talking about the composition of the song, I’m talking about the technique of playing the actual parts, the physical movements his limbs are making and he mental focus required to physically play the parts, not memorize changes or count.

Tool songs are complex songs, but the guitar parts are not technically challenging to play. That is the best example I can make of what I’m talking about.

No, I’m not talking about composition of the song. I’m talking about playing technique.

There is a surprising amount of technique involved in just hitting one note on a gong, or a timpani.

Listen to Paradigm Shift again, it’s a pretty simple composition.

Listen to the intro and then from about 7:24 to the end. If you randomly took any drummer from any rock band and told them to play that note for note do you think they would be able to do it?

If that playing is truly as simplistic as you say I would expect any random drummer to easily be able to play it note for note without any trouble.

 

[DrewJD82]

No, I’m not talking about composition of the song. I’m talking about playing technique.

There is a surprising amount of technique involved in just hitting one note on a gong, or a timpani.

Listen to Paradigm Shift again, it’s a pretty simple composition.

Listen to the intro and then from about 7:24 to the end. If you randomly took any drummer from any rock band and told them to play that note for note do you think they would be able to do it?

If that playing is truly as simplistic as you say I would expect any random drummer to easily be able to play it note for note without any trouble.

Ugh.

How many times have I said he’s a world class drummer in these posts? But now we’re at “any random drummer”

I’m out.

 

[spawnofthesith]

Thread needs more Kris Meyers. I ended up being pretty underwhelmed by Portnoy's performance filling in for him

 

[metropolis_4]

Ugh.

How many times have I said he’s a world class drummer in these posts? But now we’re at “any random drummer”

I’m out.

I’m not talking about if he’s a world class drummer, I don’t care if he is or not.

You’re not hurting my feelings or stomping on my idols or anything.

The point I was getting at is if you wouldn’t expect any random rock drummer to be able to easily play that, why not?

Also, just because I know it gets lost in text I want to say I’m not angry or upset at all in this conversation, I just think it’s something interesting to discuss.


Edit:
I also don’t want to end on bad terms here. Maybe best if we just agree to disagree and walk away from this one?

 

[DrewJD82]

I’m not talking about if he’s a world class drummer, I don’t care if he is or not.

You’re not hurting my feelings or stomping on my idols or anything.

The point I was getting at is if you wouldn’t expect any random rock drummer to be able to easily play that, why not?

Also, just because I know it gets lost in text I want to say I’m not angry or upset at all in this conversation, I just think it’s something interesting to discuss.


Edit:
I also don’t want to end on bad terms here. Maybe best if we just agree to disagree and walk away from this one?

Oh I’m not upset in anyway, I’ve been just been going in circles with tenants all week and didn’t want to keep doing it here.

I’ll gladly agree to disagree here!

(my autocorrect changed ‘agree’ to argue )

 

[metropolis_4]

Oh I’m not upset in anyway, I’ve been just been going in circles with tenants all week and didn’t want to keep doing it here.

I’ll gladly agree to disagree here!

(my autocorrect changed ‘agree’ to argue )

Ugh, I’ve been there with work. Agree to disagree it is then!

This place shouldn’t be about adding more annoyance to an already annoying week, it should be the opposite

Hope the rest of your week has less circles to be gone through

 

[DrewJD82]

Ugh, I’ve been there with work. Agree to disagree it is then!

This place shouldn’t be about adding more annoyance to an already annoying week, it should be the opposite

Hope the rest of your week has less circles to be gone through

Much agreed!

Also, my perspective is probably skewed on this particular person/subject, when I started playing drums he was the reason why and between his instructional videos and having an outstanding drummer as a best friend I was getting everything explained/demonstrated right out of the gate. I never had a “How is he doing that?” moment with him.

Actually, my first “How the fuck is he playing that?” was this groove-


Sounds fairly basic, but the independence is ridiculous.

 

[metropolis_4]

Much agreed!

Also, my perspective is probably skewed on this particular person/subject, when I started playing drums he was the reason why and between his instructional videos and having an outstanding drummer as a best friend I was getting everything explained/demonstrated right out of the gate. I never had a “How is he doing that?” moment with him.

Actually, my first “How the fuck is he playing that?” was this groove-


Sounds fairly basic, but the independence is ridiculous.

That 5 imposed over 6 is sick!

When I was a dumb kid I was a jazz drummer and I used to think it was funny when I was playing with rock bands to do things like flip the beats, or start playing on the quarter note triplets instead of the downbeats, or start playing 5 over their 4 just to see if I could throw everyone off.

Listening to stuff like this makes me wonder if Carey was the same way, haha

I have to say I’ve never really listened to Tool but this is making me think I need to spend some time going through their stuff. I love polyrhythmic stuff like that


Edit: The reason I only did that stuff when I was playing with rock bands was because the jazz band leader would have thrown his shoes at me if I pulled that shit in his band

 

[DrewJD82]

That 5 imposed over 6 is sick!

When I was a dumb kid I was a jazz drummer and I used to think it was funny when I was playing with rock bands to do things like flip the beats, or start playing on the quarter note triplets instead of the downbeats, or start playing 5 over their 4 just to see if I could throw everyone off.

Listening to stuff like this makes me wonder if Carey was the same way, haha

I have to say I’ve never really listened to Tool but this is making me think I need to spend some time going through their stuff. I love polyrhythmic stuff like that


Edit: The reason I only did that stuff when I was playing with rock bands was because the jazz band leader would have thrown his shoes at me if I pulled that shit in his band

hahahahahah that stuff IS funny, IMO.

The last 3 Tool albums are chock full of polyrhythms, that’s been their bread and butter since ‘01. Vai recently in an interview was going off about how impressed with Danny he was being he was playing all these polyrhythms himself, but pretty much every Tool song in the last 20 years, after the first or second chorus, the songs turn into polyrhythm demonstrations.

 

[TSJMajesty]

playing 5 over their 4 just to see if I could throw everyone off.

 

[Ed DeGenaro]