Plugin Piracy Thread

[TheTrueZoltan!]

I have no idea why we are even discussing this. Software piracy is theft, and theft is wrong. No ifs, no buts. Anyone who refuses to accept this simple truth may go to their local flat-earther club and discuss absurd matters with their peers.

 

[nightlight]

I'll just say that in a couple of scenarios, profiling might actually be piracy. For example:

1) You illegally access something a commercial profiler made and pretend you paid for it.
2) You or the commercial profiler use a third party IR while profiling using a loadbox.
3) You share a profile that someone else created with your friend.

Had a couple of debates about this on the Kemper forums years ago. In that regard, it's worth noting that some users are open to the idea of sharing commercial profiles, and others are okay with profiling through a third party IR.

I had specifically started the thread with regard to using third party IRs to profile. I think a number of commercial users are doing exactly that, everyone knows who they are.

 

[[Nathan]]

I'll just say that in a couple of scenarios, profiling might actually be piracy. For example:

1) You illegally access something a commercial profiler made and pretend you paid for it.
2) You or the commercial profiler use a third party IR while profiling using a loadbox.
3) You share a profile that someone else created with your friend.

Had a couple of debates about this on the Kemper forums years ago. In that regard, it's worth noting that some users are open to the idea of sharing commercial profiles, and others are okay with profiling through a third party IR.

I had specifically started the thread with regard to using third party IRs to profile. I think a number of commercial users are doing exactly that, everyone knows who they are.

The scenarios for capturing digital fork out into so many ways.
Is it a paid plugin
Is it a trialled plugin
Is it hacked
Are the irs you’re using part of the paid plugin or 3rd party
Are you using eq and other sweetener mixing plugins

I honestly don’t have the answers but I imagine the mental gymnastics people use aren’t always the best, especially if they’re selling packs and trying to justify just cloning other people’s work in bad faith.

I don’t want to go down every scenario but if I wanted to use a ndsp gojira tone in my unit, I do my own clone and it never gets shared. I don’t morally see a problem with that. Obviously sharing and selling are bad. Do the ampsim plugins have anything in their terms and conditions about profiling of any kind?

Doesn’t really matter for myself because I’m always doing amp captures via a loadbox with no IR (and also not selling anything, lol)

 

[NKP]

To me the most disturbing part is that they will have an axe 3 for free with the time.
please fractal don’t release another one, and update the actual one to make it sound like shit

Make hardware great again

 

[nightlight]

To me the most disturbing part is that they will have an axe 3 for free with the time.
please fractal don’t release another one, and update the actual one to make it sound like shit

Make hardware great again

It's actually a very smart move by Fractal. Notice how the plugin doesn't come with all the bells and whistles and a lot of effects aren't there.

The thinking probably was that if they released an "Axe FXIII" plugin, people would crack it and distribute it under the guise of egalitarianism, though to me, it sounds more like communism in the "we're in this together" camp of the piracy debate.

This could push folk over the edge, I think they just saw a market for it.

That said, the ICONS plugin set is not cheap by any means at $299 for the full Fullertone collection. If you want to get more amps and they use the same strategy, you'd have to pay thousands and thousands of dollars, which would be more cost-prohibitive than the Axe FX. Far better to pick and choose.

An example will be guys who play at home and don't need to cart around hardware. It's so convenient to just use a plugin and recall settings years later without worrying that they can't find or remember the hardware settings.

And do you really need Diezel and EVH amps if you're into clean tones? Or vice versa?

Plus, for all we know, if Fractal finds out that sales weren't great due to piracy, they're unlikely to put more packs out.

 

[Orvillain]

Never read so much copium nonsense in my life. @Tito83 just admit it, you see nothing wrong with theft. We'd all respect you way more than with all of this hoop jumping bullshit.

Even if you model piracy more as a user acquisition and delayed monetization scenario, you stil end up with the developers taking real additional risk because some people are dishonourable. No two ways about it.

 

[Tito83]

Never read so much copium nonsense in my life. @Tito83 just admit it, you see nothing wrong with theft. We'd all respect you way more than with all of this hoop jumping bullshit.

View attachment 59782

Even if you model piracy more as a user acquisition and delayed monetization scenario, you stil end up with the developers taking real additional risk because some people are dishonourable. No two ways about it.

I think that, in the vast majority of cases, plugin piracy is wrong.

My main gripe began when I read a couple of posts about gray areas.

Thing is we all have our gray areas, there's no exception. The sooner we realize that the sooner we can have an actual proper nuanced conversation - which a few people started to do in this thread - and try to find out where we need to actually draw these arbitrary lines so we don't fuck someone over. And if we ended up doing that we need to be willing to talk about it and have the humility to change.

Some people naively think there's only right or wrong, the lack of nuance makes them a lot more resistant to change. What ends up happening is the lines these people draw (also arbitrarily, even if based in culture, social class, etc) eventually hurts someone, not intentionally (in most cases), and their inability to change makes things unnecessarily harder for the people getting hurt by it.

To me the realization we all navigate gray areas is about plugin piracy as it is for basically everything else as far as morality goes.

"Only a Sith deals in absolutes"

 

[James Freeman]

 

[MirrorProfiles]

I think that, in the vast majority of cases, plugin piracy is wrong.

My main gripe began when I read a couple of posts about gray areas.

Thing is we all have our gray areas, there's no exception. The sooner we realize that the sooner we can have an actual proper nuanced conversation - which a few people started to do in this thread - and try to find out where we need to actually draw these arbitrary lines so we don't fuck someone over. And if we ended up doing that we need to be willing to talk about it and have the humility to change.

Some people naively think there's only right or wrong, the lack of nuance makes them a lot more resistant to change. What ends up happening is the lines these people draw (also arbitrarily, even if based in culture, social class, etc) eventually hurts someone, not intentionally (in most cases), and their inability to change makes things unnecessarily harder for the people getting hurt by it.

To me the realization we all navigate gray areas is about plugin piracy as it is for basically everything else as far as morality goes.

"Only a Sith deals in absolutes"

what exactly is the gray area where theft is justified?

 

[Tito83]

what exactly is the gray area where theft is justified?

Theft is a loaded word and justification sometimes is a bit tricky, because one can go "I don't accept it" and it's hard to go pass that even with all the logic in the world.

But, if I would use that word, I'd call someone that clones a plugin a thief. The fact you don't copy it 100% is irrelevant. You copy the main functionality in a number of useful scenarios (settings) and in a similar format (plugin) without any compensation or even consent from the person/company that created it. That's plenty justification for me to call it unethical.


* Apparently, to some people, if I can't quote you literally saying "I'm think cloning plugins is fine" I can't say you actually agree, so there's that. But you're the one that did quote the message starting with 'I’ll go on record that I’m fine “Profiling/Capturing/NAMing” a Plugin' and replied "This".

 

[MirrorProfiles]

Theft is a loaded word and justification sometimes is a bit tricky, because one can go "I don't accept it" and it's hard to go pass that even with all the logic in the world.

But, if I would use that word, I'd call someone that clones a plugin a thief. The fact you don't copy it 100% is irrelevant. You copy the main functionality in a number of useful scenarios (settings) and in a similar format (plugin) without any compensation or even consent from the person/company that created it. That's plenty justification for me to call it unethical.


* Apparently, to some people, if I can't quote you literally saying "I'm think cloning plugins is fine" I can't say you actually agree, so there's that. But you're the one that did quote the message starting with 'I’ll go on record that I’m fine “Profiling/Capturing/NAMing” a Plugin' and replied "This".

I mean, given the topic of the thread is piracy, I suppose I want to know what the gray areas actually are to someone who thinks piracy is justified. Maybe piracy is an easier word to define than theft in this context?

 

[Tito83]

I mean, given the topic of the thread is piracy, I suppose I want to know what the gray areas actually are to someone who thinks piracy is justified.

I've already given this one in this thread. I've personally tried for many years to buy the expansion for my 11R. I've tried the digidesign forum asking, if they are not willing to sell it, maybe they could make it a available for free with the warning "if doesn't work it's on you" given it's a legacy product. Silence. I do no think it's fair that the only way I can get it is to basically get another unit. If I could download a cracked pirated version of the updater I'd gladly use it.

Maybe piracy is an easier word to define than theft in this context?

Not sure I understand the point.

Some people use them interchangeably reading through this thread. I think word definition is also nuanced, but I personally think that's a completely separate discussion from morality.

 

[Rock Chalk]

Seems as though the misgivings Cliff had about releasing a plug-in came true in nothing flat. Not sure how, or what made him change his mind about this, but considering what has happened with it already, I wouldn't mind seeing them shut the plug-in thing down and concentrate on releasing the Axe IV.

 

[Mongillo19]

Seems as though the misgivings Cliff had about releasing a plug-in came true in nothing flat. Not sure how, or what made him change his mind about this, but considering what has happened with it already, I wouldn't mind seeing them shut the plug-in thing down and concentrate on releasing the Axe IV. View attachment 59795

I still see merit in the plugins though. I have to imagine FAS knew they were was a huge possibility of them being cracked.

Id like to think plugins aren't taking away from Axe IV development

 

[MirrorProfiles]

Seems as though the misgivings Cliff had about releasing a plug-in came true in nothing flat. Not sure how, or what made him change his mind about this, but considering what has happened with it already, I wouldn't mind seeing them shut the plug-in thing down and concentrate on releasing the Axe IV. View attachment 59795

I’m not sure Cliff and Fractal are so naive that they didn’t see issues like this coming up (given it’s not the first product to be cracked). I think the pricing and way the products have been made kind of reflects who they’re trying to sell to and what the intention is.

IMO if Fractal don’t feel able to protect their products to the standard they feel they need to to survive, they should have outsourced the copy protection elsewhere or licenced their tech to a company like UAD who haven’t had things cracked (I believe they had iLok and their own method on top that requires UA connect). Or they could tie HW units to the software as a means of copy protection, or run the plugins on an external DSP platform. Whatever method Fractal used was unfortunately not sufficient.

As I said before, I really hope Fractal did a lot of research and number crunching before assessing the viability of these products and aren’t just flying from the edge of their seat with decision making. There are many companies who are able to make selling plugins a success, and I don’t see Fractal’s situation as any different - in many ways they have a lot of advantages over other companies where making plugins a massive success should be easier for them (than say a brand new start up without such a reputation).

 

[paisleywookiee]

I’d be delighted to have to plug in my hardware to use the software, if it meant the continual release of their plugins. Sure, it’s not as convenient on the go. But the utility of a plugin is quite beneficial.

 

[MirrorProfiles]

I’d be delighted to have to plug in my hardware to use the software, if it meant the continual release of their plugins. Sure, it’s not as convenient on the go. But the utility of a plugin is quite beneficial.

100%. The benefits of a plugin version are so great that I’d jump through most hoops to allow that functionality. Using a HW modeller just isn’t practical for my needs and I’m always going to favour a plugin over HW when using modelling. The trade-offs just cancel out most of the benefits.

 

[Rock Chalk]

I’d be delighted to have to plug in my hardware to use the software, if it meant the continual release of their plugins. Sure, it’s not as convenient on the go. But the utility of a plugin is quite beneficial.

There you go.....having to plug in the hardware to use the plug-in would seem to remedy all of the piracy issues as well as satisfy the new gadget crew!

 

[Whizzinby]

Fractal had to know it would be cracked. Nobody could release a plug and be naive enough to think it wouldn’t. If the crack is going to force a pause in future releases then it does make one wonder how thought through the entire endeavor was.

That said, I’ve been posting this picture for YEARS.

The world exhausts me.

We’re sitting on the 1 yard line, let’s not deviate or get cute passing the ball.

FAS stay the course. Run the rock. (Icons Marshall)

 

[GuitarBilly74]

Gotta love people that use the "I'm more nuanced than you" argument to justify stealing shit... yeah you're a true Renaissance man LOL