Pick the real amp out from the emulations
- Thread starter MirrorProfiles
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I actually do need a full blown EQ and all sorts of parameters for reverbs and delays. I wouldn't have bought the Axe III if I didn't have them. The reason is, I get super tweaky about that shit. Whereas I couldn't give a fuck about tweaking a Boss SD-1 model, or even an amp model in depth. But spatial effects, I do.
MirrorProfiles
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RESULTS
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A few points here.
- If you responded with "I can't tell which is the real amp, but _________" then I didn't include your vote as you said you can't tell.
- Very few made guesses with absolute certainty. Of those who did, and assuming its not in jest, the guesses were pretty evenly distributed.
- If you picked more than one as the real amp, without clearly stating a preference, then I have to assume you can't identify the real one. Many of the guesses with 2 options still didn't identify the real amp, so the results were still just as random. If you stated a preference of which one out of 2 is the real amp, I included that guess.
- It's hard to include "Can't tell" as an option in the graphs because I can only count this from the forum posts. It can also have been a reason for people not to vote at all. There could have been any number of people who did the test and didn't respond (video has 600 views, much less in the way of guesses).
- On some of the forum polls, I forgot to add H as an option initially so some may have missed it. That could easily sway people into ruling it out, but I also think it would have been the least likely to be picked as the real amp in this test anyway.
- if you are suddenly able to do the test and can somehow identify ANY of them (despite being able to see the results), then I will make sure to tag you in the next test because we all need to learn how you can hear what the vast majority can't.
- The results came in immediately randomly and pretty evenly distributed. Not sure there was enough results in total to draw too many conclusions, but the vast majority of responses were "I can't tell". Even despite the discussion and everyone being able to read other comments and see vote counts, things remained somewhat even overall.
- The person with strong opinions who inspired this particular test didn't get back to me with any guesses. He did take down his posts with the initial claims though. I gave a couple of nudges that I would be revealing results soon and tried to make it as easy as possible for him to listen (posting on youtube, and also sending files). I will say no more.
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I know its not a fun subject, and for many its preaching to the converted. I know certain aspects could be done differently but there is no pleasing everyone. I appreciate any valid criticism in the testing, but also welcome others to do their own test. So much is written online about "A sounds better than B" and despite how easy it is to show things in 2022, less people back up what they say with demonstrations. The biggest variable is of course how the user dials each of these in and in this case, I think its fair to say it wasn't at all obvious which was (or wasn't) the real amp.
I think if we learn to use the tools at our disposal better, then everyone wins. I believe how we operate this equipment is by far a bigger barrier than if the tech is good enough. I think generally, we need to catch up to what the technology is capable of.
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A few points here.
- If you responded with "I can't tell which is the real amp, but _________" then I didn't include your vote as you said you can't tell.
- Very few made guesses with absolute certainty. Of those who did, and assuming its not in jest, the guesses were pretty evenly distributed.
- If you picked more than one as the real amp, without clearly stating a preference, then I have to assume you can't identify the real one. Many of the guesses with 2 options still didn't identify the real amp, so the results were still just as random. If you stated a preference of which one out of 2 is the real amp, I included that guess.
- It's hard to include "Can't tell" as an option in the graphs because I can only count this from the forum posts. It can also have been a reason for people not to vote at all. There could have been any number of people who did the test and didn't respond (video has 600 views, much less in the way of guesses).
- On some of the forum polls, I forgot to add H as an option initially so some may have missed it. That could easily sway people into ruling it out, but I also think it would have been the least likely to be picked as the real amp in this test anyway.
- if you are suddenly able to do the test and can somehow identify ANY of them (despite being able to see the results), then I will make sure to tag you in the next test because we all need to learn how you can hear what the vast majority can't.
- The results came in immediately randomly and pretty evenly distributed. Not sure there was enough results in total to draw too many conclusions, but the vast majority of responses were "I can't tell". Even despite the discussion and everyone being able to read other comments and see vote counts, things remained somewhat even overall.
- The person with strong opinions who inspired this particular test didn't get back to me with any guesses. He did take down his posts with the initial claims though. I gave a couple of nudges that I would be revealing results soon and tried to make it as easy as possible for him to listen (posting on youtube, and also sending files). I will say no more.
--------------------------------------
--------------------------------------
I know its not a fun subject, and for many its preaching to the converted. I know certain aspects could be done differently but there is no pleasing everyone. I appreciate any valid criticism in the testing, but also welcome others to do their own test. So much is written online about "A sounds better than B" and despite how easy it is to show things in 2022, less people back up what they say with demonstrations. The biggest variable is of course how the user dials each of these in and in this case, I think its fair to say it wasn't at all obvious which was (or wasn't) the real amp.
I think if we learn to use the tools at our disposal better, then everyone wins. I believe how we operate this equipment is by far a bigger barrier than if the tech is good enough. I think generally, we need to catch up to what the technology is capable of.
James Freeman
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Let me just add that if anyone re-listening to the first video now after knowing the results and starting to hear things, it's 100% bias.
MirrorProfiles
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The spreadsheet just shows the forum votes, I thought it was worth showing just those as you could get a rough sense of the % of people voting they can't tell.
I posted this test on Facebook where I counted any votes, as well as tallying up what people guessed in the comments. With those, its harder to get a gauge of what % of people couldn't tell. So the green bars show all the votes recieved, the spreadsheet is just from the forums.
Lysander
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Going back to the original video, i'm shocked by how close they all sounded. Including Helix, which IMHO is indistinguishable from the original 2203 in this clip - to the point a few here guessed it was the real amp 
Anyone claiming modeler X sounds clearly better than Y is downright deluded these days.
Anyone claiming modeler X sounds clearly better than Y is downright deluded these days.
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In this specific example that wasn’t chocked full of dynamics….
James Freeman
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This.
High gain is not very revealing because they are easier to tone match, we already know that from a million blind tests by GuitarJon (Sonic Drive Studio).
Low gain crunch might be harder to tone match manually but will reveal far more nuance.
MirrorProfiles
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regarding the dynamics thing.... I think it would be a more involved process to match the tones. Even between say 5 iterations of the same real amp it would be tough, but when factoring in all the different (often unknown) input calibration levels and master volume/poweramp behaviours in plugins, its tough. I think the examples would probably sound more different to each other, but I'm not 100% sure that the real amp would be more distinguishable.
The other factor is the original DI needs to be performed to SOMETHING, and whatever the performance is reacting to might skew things in favour of that. I suppose I could reamp through a few instances of real amps to try and even that out. Perhaps for a dynamic test, it might be good to not even try and match tones, but just perform to each model. I'm not sure the tones matching is too critical if the question is purely "which is the real amp?"
The other factor is the original DI needs to be performed to SOMETHING, and whatever the performance is reacting to might skew things in favour of that. I suppose I could reamp through a few instances of real amps to try and even that out. Perhaps for a dynamic test, it might be good to not even try and match tones, but just perform to each model. I'm not sure the tones matching is too critical if the question is purely "which is the real amp?"
MirrorProfiles
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btw, if anyone wants to hook me up with some nicely played dynamic DI’s I’m happy to do some reamps and try and do another test. Might even be fairer if the original DI is totally out of my hands…
Lysander
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I don't follow - it's an amp making amp noises. There're plenty of shootouts for crunch tones with very similar results as this one out there.
Nevermind clean tones, which modelers have been nailing effortlessly ever since the Pod XT days.
jellodog
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@MirrorProfiles I love how you shoved "The Gear Forum" under the noses of TGP in your results spreadsheet.
Well played sir, well played
Well played sir, well played
James Freeman
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@MirrorProfiles What do you think about a "same settings" comparison? That should be a lot more fun.
People will actually hear differences, have a preference and silently hope that it's their modeler of choice.
People will actually hear differences, have a preference and silently hope that it's their modeler of choice.
MirrorProfiles
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it would be funny but only to prove how dumb it is to dial in by eye rather than account for variables outside of our control. I’m not sure some people realise how different (or even bad) these can sound when you don’t adjust for tolerances and the different loads they’re modelled under.
I’m not against it but it also makes it harder to decide what the benchmark is. That can skew it unfairly from the start and people will say I did it to show some kind of preference towards one over another.
I always think it’s best to dial them in as close to how I intend them to sound, rather than what the knobs happen to look like.
I’m not against it but it also makes it harder to decide what the benchmark is. That can skew it unfairly from the start and people will say I did it to show some kind of preference towards one over another.
I always think it’s best to dial them in as close to how I intend them to sound, rather than what the knobs happen to look like.
ejecta
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Agree totally and I like higher gain too but judging from some I’ve heard on the interwebz.. I probably don’t use enough.
JiveTurkey
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I think we're quite a fair balanced bunch here@MirrorProfiles I love how you shoved "The Gear Forum" under the noses of TGP in your results spreadsheet.
Well played sir, well played
ejecta
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Yeah the same IR is going to have a huge impact on the homogenization of both sounds.
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hahahaha well there’s beginner Metal Zone/Spider with the gain on 10, the intermediate ‘got my first tube amp’ Dual Rec/5150 with the gain on 10 ”and a boost cuz everyone said I needed one” then “I’ve been playing for 30 years, I’m a trve cvlt guy, give me a Marshall MG and an HM-2” levels of distortion
I tend to hang around the wannabe-Petrucci-Awake-era
Lysander
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Was going to say, i'm not sure what the value would be to just match knobs across modelers/amps. Because they WILL sound different, and people will inevitable start discussing which one is "better", even if the difference is a few EQ points.
If you take two tube amps of the exact same model, and dial them to the exact same settings, they will sound slightly different as well.
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