Helix (with IR) vs tube amp with real cab

Can someone tell me if the cab impedance curve in Helix is baked into the power amp model? I'm trying to figure out what happens when I disable all cab modeling and plug into a real cab? Does the impedance curve still apply even when the cab model is disabled?

Doesn't bother me much if it does for now...but I'm after hyper accuracy at the end of the day and would like to know.
If you're using an Amp block (and you must be, since you mention the power amp), then I believe the answer is yes - the speaker impedance curve is baked in.

If you don't want an SIC to be included in what is sent from the Helix, use the Preamp module carrying that same amp name instead.
 
Maybe I'm dumb but if you ever played an outdoor festival where you are primarily hearing a mic'd tone through the monitors and not the tube amp pissing spls into the wind, having complete control of my direct tone using digital solutions is way more valuable to me than muh toob toan.
That’s why the arguing is fun, lol. I haven’t heard my guitar outside of IEMs live in like 10 years.
 
If you're using an Amp block (and you must be, since you mention the power amp), then I believe the answer is yes - the speaker impedance curve is baked in.

If you don't want an SIC to be included in what is sent from the Helix, use the Preamp module carrying that same amp name instead.
I'd add that depending on how loud you play and into which amp, just running the full amp into a neutral poweramp, even a tube one like the Fryette PS is not an issue. If you use an amp model with presence/depth controls then you might want to be more conservative with those.
 
The most real digital experience I have managed to get so far and I have tried pretty much everything is;
A Kemper profile that you made yourself using the cab from the amp that you profiled.
Also if you do this in the studio you can choose to not move the cab and the switch between the two without the room or an IR interfering with your test.
I know this is not representative of a real situation but it is the only time I had difficulty telling the difference.
You often see Kemper out professionally in this scenario Mark Knopfler for example.
 
Maybe I'm dumb but if you ever played an outdoor festival where you are primarily hearing a mic'd tone through the monitors and not the tube amp pissing spls into the wind, having complete control of my direct tone using digital solutions is way more valuable to me than muh toob toan.

Every bit this!

On another sidenote: Add to this that people are constantly claiming latency would be no issue with their analog rigs. But especially on larger outdoor stages, it might even become *more* of an issue with an analog rig.

Scenario #1: You have your amp/cab several meters behind you, no additional monitoring. Not even getting into the fact that sounds coming from behind aren't perceived as directly due to the shape of our ears, but even if it's not all that big of a stage, you may very well end up with, say, anything from 3-5 meters of a distance between you and your amp, resulting in 9-15ms of latency. And as its an outdoor event, there's likely no or very little reflections happening, so there's no audible "clues" to help you get along with that additional latency (one of the biggest differences between real life and digital latency, fwiw). And until now we didn't even factor the latency your digital pedals may add in.

Scenario #2: You have your amp/cab several meters behind you, this time there's additional monitoring, say, through a typical wedge at your place. If you ever have the opportunity, just move around between your cab and the monitor while playing. It's extremely likely (almost for certain), that at some spots you will perceive your sound as out-of-phase-y, even kinda modulating (as you're not a statue, hence moving) and what not.

Scenario #3: You bring your modeling rig kicking in with, say, 4ms of latency and run it through your wedge monitor only. We need to add around another 6ms for any average sized human being. But that's about it. In addition to have less latency, given quality monitors, your sound will likely be a lot closer to what you've dialed in at home or in a rehearsal space - because in neither of these places would you stand 3-5 meters away from your real cab to dial things in, whereas you'd likely monitor yourself through a wedge exactly the same in a rehearsal room and on stage.

Pick your poison. I certainly know what I'm going for. And fwiw, while plenty of folks were like "Nah, your lowly 10" wedge will never be able to supply enough of the goods on a sort of big open air stage!", the opposite is the case as the close monitoring provides a most excellent direct feel. Add to this that no bandmates will complain about that too loud idiot playing guitar. Or FOH folks getting angry about stage bleed.
Win-win on absolutely all accounts.
 
I thought we proved they sounded the same in 2017? :hmm
Modeling had definitely actually become way more usable in broader contexts by that time. The marketing claims of “they sound exactly the same” were IME long before that and was just that…. marketing hype.
 
I'd rather carry a Stomp in my man-purse than a 45 pound head and a 70 pound cab. :D


i totally get the convenience factor but say you had roadies and could just walk on stage to a few full stacks... you still saying you'd rather just use the stomp?




also it sounds like some of you play a lot shows outside lol. im guessing (could be wrong... happens a lot) that the bulk of your shows are indoor and are just reaching for something for the sake of the thread. are you able to play one rig when it makes sense for one show and play other rigs for the other shows or do you prefer to use the same thing every time?

for me at least in the HC scene around here no one is going direct on guitars and lots of shows dont even mic up the cab they just want you to play super loud. however i woudlnt bring that same mentality if I started playing different genres or different venues. i think being a good musician is being able to use the right tool for the right situation and not get too flustered.
 
We play generic variety cover band tunes as if we were a loud rock band. I like it ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Outdoor shows require more power and VOLUME (or in ears?) so whatever you are using needs to have that so you can hear what you're doing.
 
i totally get the convenience factor but say you had roadies and could just walk on stage to a few full stacks... you still saying you'd rather just use the stomp?
The thing about modelers that I like is that I’m fickle. I’ll spend 6 months thinking the JCM800 is the best ever, and only use that. But then I switch to the SLO100. Then the Mark V. It’s not that I need it all that same day. It’s that I can switch amp setups without flipping gear.
I’ve had like 12 amps in 10 years, which may not seem like a lot to some here, but it’s a whole lot of hassle.
 
Stating a personal experience = reaching? But hypothetically asking if I had roadies isn’t? :wat

It was just one example. I like digital indoors too. I just use what works for me. I don’t think a roadie could change out all the amps I want to try as fast I could on my fm3 or stomp.
 
Now I want to hear an A/B comparison of your (Line 6’s) Rockerverb and the Helix model.
We'd love to set that up and share it publicly (like we did with all the clips when Helix first launched), but Ben, Sam, and Ryan are impossibly busy right now. We really need to capture results of our A/B/X tests during the modeling process. We sometimes share A/B clips at our Sprint Review meetings every three weeks, but they're super rough and are only for sharing work progress to other employees.
Can someone tell me if the cab impedance curve in Helix is baked into the power amp model?
Yep.
The most real digital experience I have managed to get so far and I have tried pretty much everything is;
A Kemper profile that you made yourself using the cab from the amp that you profiled.
Also if you do this in the studio you can choose to not move the cab and the switch between the two without the room or an IR interfering with your test.
I know this is not representative of a real situation but it is the only time I had difficulty telling the difference.
You often see Kemper out professionally in this scenario Mark Knopfler for example.
Yep, this is the only way a comparison can come anywhere close. Because modeling has zero control over the inadequacies of one's playback system, volume, and environment.

I still maintain that if someone wants or needs to scratch that cab-in-a-room itch, they must plug their modeler into a power amp and real cab at volume. No other playback system can compete. Of course this is no reflection on modelers or modeling in general, only what most people choose to plug them into... or mistakenly assume you're supposed to plug them into.

If a matching power amp and cab is 100%, a high quality "FRFR" is... for long-time tube amp players, let's say... in an ideal scenario, maybe 60-70%? Is it worth losing 30-40% of that cab-in-the-room sound/feel for the ability to switch cabs at a whim? If one loves a particular wooden cab with a particular set of drivers, they should absolutely use it; best of both worlds at that point. And in 4-Cable Method, they can swap out their favorite amp's preamp with any modeled preamp with a single footswitch press. Modeling is not, and never has been, an all or nothing scenario.
 
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are you able to play one rig when it makes sense for one show and play other rigs for the other shows or do you prefer to use the same thing every time?

for me at least in the HC scene around here no one is going direct on guitars and lots of shows dont even mic up the cab they just want you to play super loud.
I want everything up to my IEMs the same every time. I prefer a powered wedge for stage sound but I’ll use whatever backline if needed and just EQ the output to acceptable. As long as my in-ears sound good, unmic’d guitar cabs at get-over-the-drums volume always suck in some capacity or in a large percentage of the space. And yeah, I’m going with IEMs whether it’s a basement or a huge pro stage.
We'd love to set that up and share it publicly (like we did with all the clips when Helix first launched), but Ben, Sam, and Ryan are impossibly busy right now.
Good, good.
 
If a matching power amp and cab is 100%, a high quality """FRFR""" is... for long-time tube amp players, let's say... in an ideal scenario, maybe 60-70%? Is it worth losing 30-40% of that cab-in-the-room sound/feel for the ability to switch cabs at a whim?

Fwiw, I've been a long-time tube amp player.
And I never switch cabs during a gig.
And yet, I vastly prefer a modeling (ok, somewhat hybrid) setup through a "FRFR" monitor for a whole variety of reasons.
 
Fwiw, I've been a long-time tube amp player.
And I never switch cabs during a gig.
And yet, I vastly prefer a modeling (ok, somewhat hybrid) setup through a ""FRFR"" monitor for a whole variety of reasons.
Absolutely. The convenience factor and ability to hear closer to what the audience hears are two huge advantages of FRFRs. But they're still not ideal for scratching that cab-in-the-room itch. I come from studio-land so that itch subsided many years ago; actually, I prefer 3-way studio monitors at this point because while playing, I want it to sound as close to the recording as possible—or if it's my music, as close to how it'll appear in the mix.

But my personal expectations are not the norm.
 
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