Pick the real amp out from the emulations

[Holden Afart]

Listening on my phone I'll say F or G.
How do we know that you'll tell the truth? Maybe you are one of those undisclosed shills.

 

[Orvillain]

Obvious night and day difference, but I’m not going to grace you plebes with the correct answer.

Now excuse me I’m going to go suck off a gold lion KT66

When you work your anus up to a KT88, give me a call.

 

[James Freeman]

 

[-BOOGIEMAN-]

Unfortunately, I’m unable to hear the differences on my iPhone. They all sound the same on this end…

 

[DrewJD82]

Funnily enough, I was just chatting to a mate about CLA mixing on a console and how fast and intuitive his moves are. When he works in the box, he gets the same result eventually, but it’s slower, a lot more searching around, indecision, thinking etc,

I think how we interact with gear is such an overlooked aspect, and it’s why certain boring things should be taken care of (like calibration and input load) so the actual dialling in part is more lifelike. With modelling, we essentially have to create the conditions we’re using the gear in - not just picking the gear, but ensuring the technical interactions are correct. It can be quite overwhelming to think about, especially when we’re used to just plugging in and those things being done automatically.

I agree totally on the Fractal stuff - I’m a relatively new user, but even since I bought my FM-3 the workflow improvements have helped me a ton as far as getting where I want to go. Massively agree on most people’s issues being related to using the wrong IR (forcing one to work rather than using another), or by adjusting the wrong parameter (understandable when there are so many, and they’re all given an equal prominence/importance in the interface). I think Fractal is closest to giving the optimal balance in user control that modelling SHOULD offer, but the interface has a lot further to catch up than the rest of their software.

CLA- “You want to know the secret to _________? There is no secret, just do it. Turn the knobs until it sounds good.”

I’m a big fan of his work and I studied every YouTube vid with him in it that I could find, but came across that sentence more than once. There was one Waves livestream he did where he kept saying it over and over, “You wanna know the secret? There is no secret…” THEN JUST TELL ME WTF YOU’RE DOING! (I’ve got all his Waves plugins and they’re still often my go-tos)

But yes, definitely along the lines of what I’m talking about. It’s been pretty cool to watch him adapt to the digital age. I have no doubts he’s still happily using that wall of compressors in Mix LA, but I would to if I had ‘em! It’s his Waves compressors I learned how to use compression with.

I never edit on the unit itself, I practically use my III like a plug-in and have AxeEdit pulled up the whole time I’m using it and my FM9 is no different, I have a laptop sitting on my couch. I can certainly see how the hardware can use a UI upgrade but I can’t think of any conceivable way Axe/FM-Edit could be more intuitive than it is. Fortunately, I use the EQ’s on my power amps to make any adjustments for the room I’m in, I’ve never tweaked either unit at a gig on the unit itself.

The IR thing is something I consistently go on about and it’s interesting seeing the opposition to it. I leave the amp knobs at noon (unless it’s a Mesa) and find an IR that’s giving me 90% of what I’m going for with the knobs at noon, then get the final 10% from turning the knobs. Sure, it takes some time finding that right IR, but I’m never fighting the knobs to make it sound how I want. It’s not because I believe all amps are designed to sound great with the knobs at noon, it’s just the point I have the most amount of tweakability from the front panel of an amp.

 

[MirrorProfiles]

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In a way….. the real amp is inside of us all.

I’ll get my bias probe. I mean coat.

“You wanna know the secret? There is no secret…” THEN JUST TELL ME WTF YOU’RE DOING!

I find it hilarious how this is basically always the case. With CLA, I remember re-reading the Sound On Sound article after watching a few videos and ALL of the important stuff was written in there in all the detail you'd ever really need. Lots of it is the boring tedious stuff that is easily overlooked in trying to find out about particular pieces of gear or settings or other things that don't really matter as much.

I can’t think of any conceivable way Axe/FM-Edit could be more intuitive than it is

I mean, when you are used to it, it works and it makes sense. But I think there is opportunities to refine the UI a lot. For instance, should all of the knobs have the same size, design, font, colour etc? should certain parameters have a higher priority over others? should each page just be every associated parameter, or should the main ones appear first? should it be possible to customise/hide certain parameters? what about locking their positon when you change patches? should they have the possibility to be controlled remotely via MIDI? what about a plugin controller that can recall settings on a per track basis?

I'm not really sure the experience is as intuitive as it could be, and it generally involves quite a lot of clicking around and jumping between pages.
I think the less barriers there are when using it, the faster and more direct the experience is and I think there's definitely scope to explore all of these things. I think Valhalla's plugins do this really well, especially on the more recent ones. The type of control you are offered, its position and look (and where it draws your attention to), everything on one page and always visible (from Vintage onwards). Their approach is to generally give you less controls that Fractal would (where they give you a LOT), but I still think its best to try and prioritize where your attention is focused.

I think when we typically dial an amp in, the first thing we do is connect the cab. Then we power on, and I'd imagine start with the master volume lower and gradually bring it up. Once the amp is working in its sweet spot with that particular cab, then we might think about EQ and fine tuning. And once its sounding good in the room, then we mic it up and try and capture the best representation of that through microphones.

This process can be totally jumpled up in any order when using modellers, but I think a lot of aspects are useful to carry over. I think finding the right cab and impedance curve early on is essential, as is finding the right master volume position. The rest is usually quite straightforward after that.

 

[laxu]

I mean, when you are used to it, it works and it makes sense. But I think there is opportunities to refine the UI a lot. For instance, should all of the knobs have the same size, design, font, colour etc? should certain parameters have a higher priority over others? should each page just be every associated parameter, or should the main ones appear first? should it be possible to customise/hide certain parameters? what about locking their positon when you change patches? should they have the possibility to be controlled remotely via MIDI? what about a plugin controller that can recall settings on a per track basis?

I'm not really sure the experience is as intuitive as it could be, and it generally involves quite a lot of clicking around and jumping between pages.
I think the less barriers there are when using it, the faster and more direct the experience is and I think there's definitely scope to explore all of these things. I think Valhalla's plugins do this really well, especially on the more recent ones. The type of control you are offered, its position and look (and where it draws your attention to), everything on one page and always visible (from Vintage onwards). Their approach is to generally give you less controls that Fractal would (where they give you a LOT), but I still think its best to try and prioritize where your attention is focused.

I think when we typically dial an amp in, the first thing we do is connect the cab. Then we power on, and I'd imagine start with the master volume lower and gradually bring it up. Once the amp is working in its sweet spot with that particular cab, then we might think about EQ and fine tuning. And once its sounding good in the room, then we mic it up and try and capture the best representation of that through microphones.

This process can be totally jumpled up in any order when using modellers, but I think a lot of aspects are useful to carry over. I think finding the right cab and impedance curve early on is essential, as is finding the right master volume position. The rest is usually quite straightforward after that.

Amen to all that.

I think the "authentic" page for the amp models has taken out a lot of "how do I use this" confusion out of it because you can better refer to how the real amp works and then replicate that on the digital model. Like you could go read for example Mesa's excellent manual for the Lonestar and set the Fractal models based on that.

But the effects tend to be "here's everything you can do for this type" parameter vomit where it can be hard to find out which ones are relevant and which ones are more subtle or special usecase controls. A simplified view for these would give a "Fractal curated" experience which would take their effects closer to how a nice pedal works. Like I don't need a full blown parametric EQ for a reverb, a full blown LFO to add modulation to a delay or a delay knob that can go from 10ms all the way to 10 seconds. It's cool it's there when you want that, but 99% of users really need something much simpler. A saving grace for a lot of Fractal effects is that the defaults sound pretty great out of the box and don't need a whole lot of tweaks.

 

[DrewJD82]

In a way….. the real amp is inside of us all.

I’ll get my bias probe. I mean coat.


I find it hilarious how this is basically always the case. With CLA, I remember re-reading the Sound On Sound article after watching a few videos and ALL of the important stuff was written in there in all the detail you'd ever really need. Lots of it is the boring tedious stuff that is easily overlooked in trying to find out about particular pieces of gear or settings or other things that don't really matter as much.



I mean, when you are used to it, it works and it makes sense. But I think there is opportunities to refine the UI a lot. For instance, should all of the knobs have the same size, design, font, colour etc? should certain parameters have a higher priority over others? should each page just be every associated parameter, or should the main ones appear first? should it be possible to customise/hide certain parameters? what about locking their positon when you change patches? should they have the possibility to be controlled remotely via MIDI? what about a plugin controller that can recall settings on a per track basis?

I'm not really sure the experience is as intuitive as it could be, and it generally involves quite a lot of clicking around and jumping between pages.
I think the less barriers there are when using it, the faster and more direct the experience is and I think there's definitely scope to explore all of these things. I think Valhalla's plugins do this really well, especially on the more recent ones. The type of control you are offered, its position and look (and where it draws your attention to), everything on one page and always visible (from Vintage onwards). Their approach is to generally give you less controls that Fractal would (where they give you a LOT), but I still think its best to try and prioritize where your attention is focused.

I think when we typically dial an amp in, the first thing we do is connect the cab. Then we power on, and I'd imagine start with the master volume lower and gradually bring it up. Once the amp is working in its sweet spot with that particular cab, then we might think about EQ and fine tuning. And once its sounding good in the room, then we mic it up and try and capture the best representation of that through microphones.

This process can be totally jumpled up in any order when using modellers, but I think a lot of aspects are useful to carry over. I think finding the right cab and impedance curve early on is essential, as is finding the right master volume position. The rest is usually quite straightforward after that.

I think a lot of that stuff is getting into personal preferences. I definitely wouldn’t want different colored knobs, that’d probably drive me nuts, though I do see a lot of people with visual impairments that could probably benefit from it, I’d just want the option for “No Colors” I think the main ones do appear first with the Tone/Ideal pages with all the deeper stuff following under them, where they’re organized by section of the amp; power supply, speaker, etc. Breaking that stuff up would have me looking in other areas to find what ‘should’ be associated with that section. I can understand hiding some things, but again, that’s personal preference stuff. I’d definitely prefer to have everything laid out in front of me as it currently exists, but I’m going on 5 years of working with the editor, so I’m very used to it. Like if they changed the UI to CLA-Epic or Echosphere at this point, I’d be annoyed by it because I know exactly where I want to go.

The plug-in has been discussed before and it’s not off the table as of yet. I definitely wouldn’t mind that, but it’d be hard to keep up with FW updates as if you had a session from last year, loaded it up and it loaded up the settings from last year in a new FW, it wouldn’t sound the same. I used to finish a song and load all the presets with the FW I used during that session in the song’s folder, I eventually stopped because I wouldn’t want to go through the hassle of re-loading FW’s just to make some small adjustments when an updated FW always makes it faster for me to dial in a tone anyway.

 

[Whizzinby]

 

[MirrorProfiles]

still haven't had a reply from the guy who inspired this test. if I don't hear from him today, Ill nudge him tomorrow. I'm totally prepared for the "I knew it was that one!" when I reveal the answers to him

 

[Gearzilla]

 

[ejecta]

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A lot of girls like warm tubes.

 

[imperator]

The real way to do this test is to have each clip actually be exactly the same. Then post it and enjoy the comments about haunting mids, amd how electron field is less disturbed by the tubez.

The tone stuff and bickering is just crazy, buy gear because it's a fun hobby and you enjoy trying new gear. From a practical standpoint you can make professional stuff with free amp Sims though and no one would know the difference.

 

[Lysander]

The real way to do this test is to have each clip actually be exactly the same. Then post it and enjoy the comments about haunting mids, amd how electron field is less disturbed by the tubez.

 

[ejecta]

He’s not wrong about our ears fooling us and thank goodness he didn’t do a gained out tone. I’m so tired of the “Guess the real amp” with way too much gain and compression type clips.

 

[bgh]

I stopped guessing on these types of things years ago. I don't have "discerning enough" ears and am always listening on some turd of a "monitor" that the exercise is pointless. Fun to speculate for some though.

I'm the same way. To me, they all sounded pretty close to the same (through Bose headphones on my computer). I have no doubt my ears are not up to the same standard as others. In fact, I know I suffer from some frequency loss (too many years in front of an amp?). Plus, for me to compare two tones, I need to be able to listen to one for just a few seconds - and then switch to the other (lather, rinse, repeat). If I listed to one sample for ten seconds, it has captured my short-term hearing to the degree I have trouble "remembering" the previous sample.

Having said all of that, I think H is my favorite. Less treble than the others.

 

[DrewJD82]

He’s not wrong about our ears fooling us and thank goodness he didn’t do a gained out tone. I’m so tired of the “Guess the real amp” with way too much gain and compression type clips.

Yeah, once something passes Plexi-levels of gain I have a hard time differentiating stuff nearly anything but Mesa’s. I don’t know if it’s because I spent so much time with them or what, but every other high gain head, especially if it’s boosted, I’m clueless. And I love high gain!

 

[la szum]

Amen to all that.



But the effects tend to be "here's everything you can do for this type" parameter vomit where it can be hard to find out which ones are relevant and which ones are more subtle or special usecase controls. A simplified view for these would give a "Fractal curated" experience which would take their effects closer to how a nice pedal works. Like I don't need a full blown parametric EQ for a reverb, a full blown LFO to add modulation to a delay or a delay knob that can go from 10ms all the way to 10 seconds. It's cool it's there when you want that, but 99% of users really need something much simpler. A saving grace for a lot of Fractal effects is that the defaults sound pretty great out of the box and don't need a whole lot of tweaks.

Yup. I made a thread about exactly that on the Fractal Forum and Ian nozzle face shot me down 2 posts in.

I used an MXR Phase 90 as an example. 1 knob. With all the options available in the Phaser Block I can't
even get remotely close to what that pedal will do with the sweep of 1 knob. Why? Should those Effect
Blocks be that over-engineered and complicated???

I appreciate your persistence in trying to drive sensible points home through the massively defended cranium
fortresses of the stubbornly obstinate---even if you have been teased about in the past.

 

[la szum]

He’s not wrong about our ears fooling us and thank goodness he didn’t do a gained out tone. I’m so tired of the “Guess the real amp” with way too much gain and compression type clips.

Yup. Or the same IR at the end which acts as a massive Filter.

I mean, in the real world would a Dual Rec be paired with Marshall Basketweave loaded with Greenbacks,
or a Marshall Superlead be paired with a V30 loaded Mesa Rectifier Cab?? Probably not.

 

[JT]

Yup. Or the same IR at the end which acts as a massive Filter.

I mean, in the real world would a Dual Rec be paired with Marshall Basketweave loaded with Greenbacks,
or a Marshall Superlead be paired with a V30 loaded Mesa Rectifier Cab?? Probably not.

Try pairing a Dual Rec with a basketweave with Greenies