Helix (with IR) vs tube amp with real cab

[Progressive_disclosure]

I couldn’t really gel with just a Helix LT and I’m 1000 times more content with a small tube amp and a HX Stomp, either in 4CM or just for FX loop or for post-FX/cabsim/headphone/interface. And then to just run it separately when I want or need.

It’s kind of fascinating, and unsurprising, that there are still so many comments and perspectives on analog vs digital. It doesn’t have to be black and white. Mix and match analog and digital until you find your favorites setups. Appreciate the video series Jon is doing though.

 

[pipelineaudio]

Absolutely. Except then the next guy in the YouTube comment section responds with "lol digital sux." With again, zero mention of playback system or expectations.

Never let them forget that this is a quantum universe, even their tube amp, is in fact, digital

 

[AFKAEjay(retired)]

Amp sales are slipping across the board. Not sure how ToneMaster is doing, but I will say that whenever we float the idea of a higher end modeling amp, we're met with "Yeah, but Fender is selling the *idea* of a single real tube amp with the Tone Masters; you can't really pull off a flexible modeling amp at the same price." For the record, I don't agree—there's a path forward; I just gotta convince the right people.

I’m not “the market”, but personally I’d not be first in line for a highend combo. Digital brains in a floorboard can travel without the cab attached, plus…the analog components (amp/speaker) are timeless, while the digital part may go out of fashion…those would be my concerns.

I do believe there may be potential in answering the question “how do I get what I get from an amp in combination with (some) of the benifits of my modeler”. It can all be done with stuff already there…poweramps/returns of combos..but it’s not explicit in market offerings, maybe a lot of people don’t know what it would bring them, maybe it’s hard to figure out?
Maybe a set of preamp models for existing hardware marketed as “plug these in your return”….in combination with a tube powered guitar cab, maybe some midi controlled loops in there for integration with analog preamps, IR loader, the poweramp options like in your DT?…mostly analog parts ready to accommodate any modeler/analog presmp. Its close to a combo with a loop…so you’d have to find stuff to outrun those
Maybe a digital synergy module?

 

[laxu]

I’m not “the market”, but personally I’d not be first in line for a highend combo. Digital brains in a floorboard can travel without the cab attached, plus…the analog components (amp/speaker) are timeless, while the digital part may go out of fashion…those would be my concerns.

I do believe there may be potential in answering the question “how do I get what I get from an amp in combination with (some) of the benifits of my modeler”. It can all be done with stuff already there…poweramps/returns of combos..but it’s not explicit in market offerings, maybe a lot of people don’t know what it would bring them, maybe it’s hard to figure out?
Maybe a set of preamp models for existing hardware marketed as “plug these in your return”….in combination with a tube powered guitar cab, maybe some midi controlled loops in there for integration with analog preamps, IR loader, the poweramp options like in your DT?…mostly analog parts ready to accommodate any modeler/analog presmp. Its close to a combo with a loop…so you’d have to find stuff to outrun those
Maybe a digital synergy module?

Line6 already made amps like that in the past. The Spider Valve was kind of like the Catalyst but with a tube power section and POD-based modeling. Would upgrading that to Helix based modeling make it better, and avoiding the Spider branding? Sure.

The Fender Tone Master amps try to be a solution for people who find the all-tube versions:

• Too expensive.
• Too loud to get the tone they want.
• Too heavy to move around.

Meanwhile they evoke the tube amp simplicity and styling, so they don't get lumped together with the Line6 Catalyst or Boss Katana that try to offer a lot of sound options + onboard effects. Most guitarists are also willing to pay more for tube amps than solid-state/digital amps.

Let's say Line6 makes a higher end head or combo. To me the potential appeal would be:

• Less weight.
• No concern about "what do I plug this into?" because the poweramp tuned to work well with the modeling is right there.
• More sound variation than you can get out of most tube amps, or Synergy without swapping modules.
• If it has built-in effects, instant switching of the entire fx chain.
• Easier and more familiar to use than the full blown multifx floor/rack units.

But inevitably it will lead to "This doesn't sound like a Vox AC30 when it's plugged into my 4x12 with V30s! Modeling sucks!" or "This doesn't sound like my favorite tube amp! What do you mean 'Did you volume match them with a decibel meter and use the same speakers?'"
The Catalyst at least avoids this because it doesn't have direct "this is a Vox model" amp models.

The Boss Katana Artist and Nextone series already attempted something like this and those haven't gotten any noticeable popularity.

 

[dronerstone]

In a blind A/B test with just a cab sitting near me, but the modeler/amp in the next room, I might not be able to make a distinction between digital and tube amp, if they're dialed in close enough.

 

[AFKAEjay(retired)]

Line6 already made amps like that in the past. The Spider Valve was kind of like the Catalyst but with a tube power section and POD-based modeling. Would upgrading that to Helix based modeling make it better, and avoiding the Spider branding? Sure.

The Fender Tone Master amps try to be a solution for people who find the all-tube versions:

• Too expensive.
• Too loud to get the tone they want.
• Too heavy to move around.

Meanwhile they evoke the tube amp simplicity and styling, so they don't get lumped together with the Line6 Catalyst or Boss Katana that try to offer a lot of sound options + onboard effects. Most guitarists are also willing to pay more for tube amps than solid-state/digital amps.

Let's say Line6 makes a higher end head or combo. To me the potential appeal would be:

• Less weight.
• No concern about "what do I plug this into?" because the poweramp tuned to work well with the modeling is right there.
• More sound variation than you can get out of most tube amps, or Synergy without swapping modules.
• If it has built-in effects, instant switching of the entire fx chain.
• Easier and more familiar to use than the full blown multifx floor/rack units.

But inevitably it will lead to "This doesn't sound like a Vox AC30 when it's plugged into my 4x12 with V30s! Modeling sucks!" or "This doesn't sound like my favorite tube amp! What do you mean 'Did you volume match them with a decibel meter and use the same speakers?'"
The Catalyst at least avoids this because it doesn't have direct "this is a Vox model" amp models.

The Boss Katana Artist and Nextone series already attempted something like this and those haven't gotten any noticeable popularity.

Maybe I wasn’t clear…or you missread
I was aiming at separating the digital and analog components, but put them in an eco system that optimizes hybrid setups. Along the lines of what atomic dead years ago, but 2.0

 

[laxu]

Maybe I wasn’t clear…or you missread
I was aiming at separating the digital and analog components, but put them in an eco system that optimizes hybrid setups. Along the lines of what atomic did years ago, but 2.0

That doesn't sound like it would solve anything you can't do with current products out there.

I used the Atomic FR 1x12 combo with the Axe-Fx 2 for years. 50W tube poweramp, 1x12 woofer and a tweeter with adjustable level. I mostly dialed it so there was fairly little tweeter. Worked well.

But I don't think the tube poweramp is that necessary here, and you could get about the same results from say the Fender FR-12.

Maybe I'm still not understanding what kind of products you are thinking of.

 

[ian_dissonance]

Maybe I wasn’t clear…or you missread
I was aiming at separating the digital and analog components, but put them in an eco system that optimizes hybrid setups. Along the lines of what atomic dead years ago, but 2.0

The Atomic was just a tube power cab? Or did I miss something? There’s a whole pile of tube combos out there for reasonable prices.

 

[AFKAEjay(retired)]

That doesn't sound like it would solve anything you can't do with current products out there.

The Atomic was just a tube power cab? Or did I miss something? There’s a whole pile of tube combos out there for reasonable prices.

True…nothing here that can’t already be done…if you are aware of it.
It’s 80% presentation, maybe 20% features in that tube power cab. Maybe IR, maybe switch loops, maybe change the poweramp tubes/architecture to optimize for whatever preamp..idnk.
+ here’s a pack of digital preamps for your digital device that is meant for you to run into tube power.
I think hybrid would be a solution for many, but many stick to one camp cause the internet/marketing tells them that.

Maybe the point is, nobody is marketing a product line that is digital preamps + tube power & cab, in components. The question is, is the market waiting for that kind of explicitly, or does the market understand that you can already do it with your modeler and any combo with a loop.

 

[laxu]

True…nothing here that can’t already be done…if you are aware of it.
It’s 80% presentation, maybe 20% features in that tube power cab. Maybe IR, maybe switch loops, maybe change the poweramp tubes/architecture to optimize for whatever preamp..idnk.
+ here’s a pack of digital preamps for your digital device that is meant for you to run into tube power.
I think hybrid would be a solution for many, but many stick to one camp cause the internet/marketing tells them that.

Maybe the point is, nobody is marketing a product line that is digital preamps + tube power & cab, in components. The question is, is the market waiting for that kind of explicitly, or does the market understand that you can already do it with your modeler and any combo with a loop.

That sounds a lot like e.g the Synergy SYN20-IR, but with digital preamp models?

 

[dronerstone]

Since the Katana and Catalyst do get some praise as lightweight power amp/head solutions, has anyone tried running through the FX return of a cheap big-iron amp, e.g. Peavey Valve King?

I know it's not a popular amp at all (and big/heavy), but depending on the circuit, a 100W 6L6 power section could be handy.

 

[Sascha Franck]

I still want an all digital/solidstate rig with full WYSIWYG control over every relevant parameter.

 

[AFKAEjay(retired)]

That sounds a lot like e.g the Synergy SYN20-IR, but with digital preamp models?

That’s also an approach for a good marriage between the 2 worlds…a digital synergy module, but then you anchor it to a specific platform.
The line of thinking is simular…digital component of your choice loaded with preamps, and a tube powered box to make it louder ..and life a tad easier then using the return of a combo. IR, extra midi switchable loop, global eq, maybe a 9/12v supply. Market it as digital with zero compromise for the tube lover.

 

[Digital Igloo]

But inevitably it will lead to "This doesn't sound like a Vox AC30 when it's plugged into my 4x12 with V30s! Modeling sucks!" or "This doesn't sound like my favorite tube amp! What do you mean 'Did you volume match them with a decibel meter and use the same speakers?'"
The Catalyst at least avoids this because it doesn't have direct "this is a Vox model" amp models.

100%. Plus, if the cab is open-backed, closed-back sounds will suffer; if the cab is closed-back, open-back sounds will suffer.

Fender could very well be working on a Tone Master Pro amp with all sorts of stuff in it, but it'd definitely be tricky for them too.

Maybe the point is, nobody is marketing a product line that is digital preamps + tube power & cab, in components. The question is, is the market waiting for that kind of explicitly, or does the market understand that you can already do it with your modeler and any combo with a loop.

DT50 and DT25 were meant to be this, complete with tube topology that intelligently matched whatever model you were running in POD HD. They didn't sell particularly well, in part because the tube power amp section meant they had to sell for more than $1000. They sounded fantastic at the time, however, even if the amp modeling was pre-Helix era. Via L6 LINK, you could even digitally daisy-chain multiple amps for true stereo or wet-dry-wet (or wet-dry-dry-wet!), with or without linked tonestack knobs; it was pretty nuts.