Odd Warble OD tone

[Sascha Franck]

@Stone You could just put a little painter's tape around the B & D strings to hold them still and together; and then play the G on its own and check Sasha's theory.

For this little test you could even just wrap a sock around the neck somewhere at the lower frets.

 

[jellodog]

For this little test you could even just wrap a sock around the neck somewhere at the lower frets.

Yeah that would be better. Even a small amount of tape is annoying to remove haha.

 

[Stone]

Yes you are. The G string is next to the D string.


Target note: F#, warbling along with a D.


Target note: G, not warbling.
Check the principles of harmonic series.

Fwiw, this is am extremely common thing to happen. So, no need to discuss it any longer for me. You can decide to try what I suggested, you could as well perhaps take some advice from someone with 40 years of playing and 30+ years of teaching experience on his belt. But you can as well not.

not doubting your experience and expertise
but all i can say i am not touching any other strings, perhaps you could be kind and post a video with the same settings im using and maybe i could find the issue

 

[Evilution]

Sorry to say so but it's all about your playing. It's the open D string ringing along a bit. That's causing some intermodulation. And quite obviously, it's not as noticeable when you slide from 5th to 7th fret, because that's a D as the target note. When you however slide from 7 to 9, the target note is an E, which will not go along as well with the open D string.

Solution: Dampen the open D string. Best bet would possibly be to use a part of the tip of your index finger.

Even before i saw your post i thought it sounded like some sort of intermodulation between two notes so i do agree with that, how exactly it came about you are probably a better judge.

 

[Sascha Franck]

but all i can say i am not touching any other strings

You don't need to "actively touch" your strings. When using overdriven sounds, even just a slight slap onto the body, an accidental touch while sliding and what not might make them vibrate slightly, which will then become audible due to the massive compression overdrive is causing. Which is why the most crucial thing when playing overdriven sounds would happen to be proper string dampening.
Neighboured open strings are *the* most common victims for all that.

Here's the same notes played through the patch you provided (sounds quite a bit different, likely because I used Helix Native, hence a different input path. HX Stomp can't load the patch and I didn't bother adjusting it to do). No warble.

 

[Stone]

You don't need to "actively touch" your strings. When using overdriven sounds, even just a slight slap onto the body, an accidental touch while sliding and what not might make them vibrate slightly, which will then become audible due to the massive compression overdrive is causing. Which is why the most crucial thing when playing overdriven sounds would happen to be proper string dampening.
Neigboured open strings are *the* most common victims for all that.

Here's the same notes played through the patch you provided (sounds quite a bit different, likely because I used Helix Native, hence a different input path. HX Stomp can't load the patch and I didn't bother adjusting it to do).

HA! i stand corrected Did not know I needed to Mute the D string with the tip of my finger on certain frets
still odd that this is only on certain frets

Thanks

 

[jellodog]

HA! i stand corrected Did not know I needed to Mute the D string with the tip of my finger on certain frets
still odd that this is only on certain frets

Thanks

Sasha already explained that on some frets you will get a harmonious (non dissonant) interaction from the open string; so there will still be some of the open undamped string noise mixed in there, but you often don't notice it because it sounds "nice" and forms a faint chord. On other frets you will get a dissonant interaction and warbling (or beat) notes.

 

[Sascha Franck]

still odd that this is only on certain frets

Not really. It's got to do with harmonics, consonance and dissonance. When your target note is a D (7th fret, G-string), the ringing open string D creates an octave, which is a consonant interval, causing very little intermodulation (the harmonic overtones of both notes are "in line", so to speak). When you however play an E (9th fret, G-string), the resulting interval is a major ninth (or a major second, should the open D string ring with it's most prominent overtone, namely the octave, which might as well happen once you accidentally touch it lightly). Not the most critical dissonance on earth, yet causing vastly stronger intermodulations once distortion is involved.

 

[Stone]

Is this why some guitars have that cloth band after the nut?
ive noticed this on some of Leon Todd's guitars
like something as such?

or thats for something different?

 

[Sascha Franck]

Here's an example, still using your patch. I'm simply playing the open D string and the fretted G string (picking the D string, so the effect becomes very audible). The two Ds will still intermodulate a little as distortion brings out even the smallest tuning inaccuracies, but with the open D string and the fretted E, we're full stop in warble land.

 

[Sascha Franck]

Is this why some guitars have that cloth band after the nut?

You mean between nut and tuners? That's usually to avoid the little portions of string up there to ring - which sometimes would also be transported to your pickups through neck and body, causing different but also somewhat related effects.
But there's also players actively dampening their strings in the lower area of the fretboard, most notably those into two hand tapping, simply because when going for that, proper open string muting becomes incredibly difficult.

Whatever, when playing distorted lines, the rule of thumb would be to make sure that there's *never* any other note ringing but the one you want to play. Yes, there's tons of exceptions, and yes, you may explicitely want some of that intermodulation, but in general, you want clean lines. And for those, proper damping/muting technique is paramount.

 

[Stone]

You mean between nut and tuners? That's usually to avoid the little portions of string up there to ring - which sometimes would also be transported to your pickups through neck and body, causing different but also somewhat related effects.
But there's also players actively dampening their strings in the lower area of the fretboard, most notably those into two hand tapping, simply because when going for that, proper open string muting becomes incredibly difficult.

Whatever, when playing distorted lines, the rule of thumb would be to make sure that there's *never* any other note ringing but the one you want to play. Yes, there's tons of exceptions, and yes, you may explicitely want some of that intermodulation, but in general, you want clean lines. And for those, proper damping/muting technique is paramount.

As i have just learned, something to work on

 

[Sascha Franck]

like something as such?

Replied before you edited your post. Well, yeah, that's a double purpose damper. You can keep it behind the nut for general purpose playing, in that case the positive side effect will be that those little portions of string won't get into the way (I have to do something similar on my Anderson as it's extremely resonant). But originally that thing was meant to be dragged over the fretboard, helping with muting the open strings when tapping.

 

[Stone]

Replied before you edited your post. Well, yeah, that's a double purpose damper. You can keep it behind the nut for general purpose playing, in that case the positive side effect will be that those little portions of string won't get into the way (I have to do something similar on my Anderson as it's extremely resonant). But originally that thing was meant to be dragged over the fretboard, helping with muting the open strings when tapping.

well best work on this new technique I've discovered, be best for me in any case

 

[Boudoir Guitar]

Also: Buy more bigger rugs!

 

[TSJMajesty]

Are you muting your other strings when you let a note ring out?

 

[TSJMajesty]

I am not touching any other strings

You should be. Any time you let a string ring out, it's vibrations (and harmonics) can make un-dampened strings resonate.

The reason it sounds weird is the way the Helix is processing what it "hears." At least that's what I think.

I'm not 100% convinced modelers replicate intermodulation the same way an amp does.

Example: I work really hard to make sure my technique is accurate when changing strings. The dissonance I hear, even for s split second, when I don't release one string at the exact right time (this is with high gain tones) drives me crazy! I'd swear the Axe doesn't do these sounds faithfully, because when I play through my amp, the same riff I tend to always do it in, it seems much more forgiving, if that makes sense. I even compared it to the Archetype Petrucci plugin, and I swear it sounds different. Like, a little easier to not care about.

I say that because that's what I think you're hearing- an intermodulation "artifact", that you get when 2 strings are both resonating, and the modeler isn't reproducing the sound exactly the same as a real amp would.

I see someone else also thinks you're getting resonation from another string.

 

[TSJMajesty]

Did not know I needed to Mute the D string with the tip of my finger on certain frets

I just now went back and read the rest of the thread. I can't point to a specific song he plays, but if you watch Petrucci play, when he has a note that rings for any length of time, you'll see him rest his fingers on the open strings, so only the one note can ring out. It's just something you have to do if you want your playing to be clean.

still odd that this is only on certain frets

Not really. Certain notes simply won't have the fundamental or overtones to match with any of your open strings.

 

[TSJMajesty]

Here, I found one. He does it twice at this point. Watch his right hand:

 

[the-trooper]

and im telling you im no where near the D string,

That's what he's telling you, you have to mute the strings you're not playing. Those below the played one with your freting hand, those above the played one with your picking hand.

If they're open they'll ring out just from the vibrations of other strings.