New modeler: Analysis paralysis (book)

[Shredder777]

So why did you mention it in the first place? Do you want to be convinced that it's good? That will not happen because you said:

The only thing I said about Line6 was that they had more effects than the other brands, but the amp modeling wasn't an improvement on what I have now.

This wasn't supposed to be about Line6 as they aren't in consideration for my next modeler, but the Helix mafia apparently did not like that sentiment. I am looking at Fractal or QC (or maybe outside chance of TMP).

 

[mercifulfuzziness]

The only thing I said about Line6 was that they had more effects than the other brands, but the amp modeling wasn't an improvement on what I have now.

This wasn't supposed to be about Line6 as they aren't in consideration for my next modeler, but the Helix mafia apparently did not like that sentiment. I am looking at Fractal or QC (or maybe outside chance of TMP).

It might be the wording that you choose that might get people go into you a bit. And either you are not aware of it, or it's something you do on purpose, like using the words 'helix mafia'.

 

[jellodog]

Profiling not as good as ToneX

Sure... if we're splitting hairs about that hard to define extra 2% in the accuracy stakes.

But the QC / NC captures are still super enjoyable, accurate enough and satisfying, even if they do sometimes sound very subtly "different" to the Tonex. I quite like the "different", actually.

Similar to how a there's many Kemper users out there that still like its compressed enhanced mids, even though it's technically less accurate than all of the other capture devices these days. Just try it and see if you like it.

Anyway, despite owning an Axe-Fx, I bought the Nano and I've been enjoying it. An Excellent capture on the QC or NC will still sound better than an average capture on Tonex and vice versa - there's so much variation in the different capture processes used by individuals. Some are hobbyists and some are professionals with some really nice outboard gear.

Regardless:

Just get the FM3. It has a plethora of fabulous amps to offer and excellent effects. If you don't like it, the resale value is decent.

And absolutely do not consider the Boss. They blew it!

 

[Mongillo19]

I say get a QC try it, get a FM3 try it. Return what you don't like

 

[Shredder777]

Sure... if we're splitting hairs about that hard to define extra 2% in the accuracy stakes.

But the captures are still super enjoyable and satisfying even if they do sometimes sound very subtly "different". I quite like the "different".

Similar to how a there's many Kemper users out there that still like the compressed enhanced mids even though it's technically less accurate than all of the other capture devices these days. Just try it and see if you like it.

Anyway, despite owning an Axe-Fx, I bought the Nano and I've been enjoying it. An Excellent capture on the QC or NC will still sound better than an average capture on Tonex and vice versa - there's so much variation in the different capture processes used by individuals. Some hobbyists and some professionals.

Regardless:

Just get the FM3.

And absolutely do not consider the Boss!

You have same thought process I do.

Why did you get the nano cortex to supplement your fractal? This is sorta where I am, supplementing my Zoom with a ToneX. But the fractal should be good enough that a NC is not an improvement?

I agree Boss is no go.

If I had to buy today it would be FM3, but your buying the NC gives me pause.

 

[Shredder777]

It might be the wording that you choose that might get people go into you a bit. And either you are not aware of it, or it's something you do on purpose, like using the words 'helix mafia'.

Well yeah. I said nothing derogatory about Helix other than it wasnt an improvement on what I have now and I got jumped by a handful of people. What else do you call that?

 

[mercifulfuzziness]

Well yeah. I said nothing derogatory about Helix other than it wasnt an improvement on what I have now and I got jumped by a handful of people. What else do you call that?

The internet.

:)

 

[Sascha Franck]

Why do you need top modeling if you plan to use a real amp anyway?

 

[jellodog]

Why did you get the nano cortex to supplement your fractal? This is sorta where I am, supplementing my Zoom with a ToneX. But the fractal should be good enough that a NC is not an improvement?

I didn't buy the Nano Cortex because I thought it would somehow best the Fractal unit.

I don't gig. The Axe-Fx III sits in one place attached to my primary set of KH 120 monitors and never moves. In fact it would be annoying to frequently move it. I love it; It sounds amazing.

No, I bought the Nano as a portable device that I can take to another part of the house for a bit of fun and comfortable silent practice with headphones. I've played sat on the bed and I've played with it sat in random spots on the floor. There are other Genelec monitors and an FR-10 in other rooms too! It does sound great through the Neumanns though - of course I tried it.

But there are other reasons to buy another device: I'm also a total gear Wh*re...

So I was just curious about the Nano. I wanted to also have a non-component-modelling device. I already own the best component modelled device, so I wanted something that took a different approach.

I bought the NC for what it is - I accept the simple fixed chain and like the reverb and only delay that's built in. It has some good factory captures, (the Diesel VH4 was a surprise - I didn't think I would ever be interested in that amp), but I also bought a handful of Amalgam Audio QC captures too, which I'd been experimenting with on my M1 MacBook within the NAM player. And I already own a ton of York Audio IRs.

Anyway, I'm loving it! It's a bit like going on holiday for a change of scene. It's different. It's plug and play. It doesn't do everything, but it does enough for my simple needs.

HOWEVER...

If I had to buy only one smaller all-in-one device with XLR outs, headphones, excellent amp models and effects today, with everything in the box, then I'd still buy an FM3. And if you have the budget, the FM9 is the goldilocks device.

 

[Shredder777]

Why do you need top modeling if you plan to use a real amp anyway?

Because I can use (say) a Fractal preamp to feed the real amp and I get a ton of options.

 

[laxu]

You're over analyzing it.

I ran the Helix Floor in freakin' 7CM into two amps in stereo, with each amp having pre/post fx. That still was totally fine for both tone and latency. Obviously a totally insane rig to use, but I did it just to try it out.

When the QC released 3 years ago, I owned the Helix Floor, QC and FM3 at the same time. I extensively compared them back to back.

The most important differences are going to be:

• Workflow. At the time the QC was the best onboard UI, the Helix a good in-betweener and the FM3. Axe-Edit had the best computer editor, QC had none back then, and HX Edit is "meh, good enough."
• Effects quality. Not amp/cab sim quality, effects. FM3 > Helix > QC for me.
• Form factor and footswitching. QC is a bit cramped for stomping, but a great desktop unit. Helix Floor has everything you need but is hideously large for my tastes. FM3's 3 footswitches are just not enough IMO for all the features it has, and it's an inelegant, somewhat chonky box that doesn't go that nicely on a pedalboard or desk.

Latency, conversion quality...these are totally irrelevant factors IMO. The top units are all good enough in this regard.

For amp sims, consider if it's more important to you to have good tones, or if you are a stickler about the accuracy of things. This will determine if you are ok with e.g Boss, Hotone, Kemper etc, or if you should go for say Fractal. Getting tones that sound good and are fun to play is easier than ever.

For effects, Fractal rules the roost, but Helix provides a more pedalboard style experience. QC is alright, but not going to blow your socks off.

I sold the QC because I did not trust NDSP's roadmap. It was the right move back then. I sold the Helix Floor mainly because I wanted a desktop friendly unit, and the Helix was definitely not it, while the HX Stomp is too gimped in onboard UI. So FM3 was the compromise, even though I don't like using it without the editor. But I'd still recommend Helix any day for someone looking for a do-it-all floor unit.

IMO the Tone Master Pro is atm where the QC was at release. Unknown roadmap and not a mature product.

If you just want something different to try, the Hotone Ampero 2 Stomp or Stage is pretty inexpensive and is kind of like a "QC meets HX Stomp" in many ways. The Stage has the capture feature which might satisfy you for amp sounds if you have amps to capture, or maybe you can capture your IRX to slap it into the unit. A2 Stomp is likely to get the capture feature next year.

I think you just need to buy a unit or two and just try them for yourself. This is easier if they are something sold by a major retailer and don't cost $1500+ a pop since it's easier to afford a few and return the one(s) you don't like.

 

[jellodog]

I found the capture I settled on for my favorite Friedman BE 'preset' on Nano has a gain roll off on the guitar volume pot equal to the IR-X. Some captures work better than others in that regard.
I set the IR-X and Nano up side by side and tried to make the IR-X compel me to keep it but it became obvious it wasn't a better option and obviously limited. I wouldn't say it is 'only one sound' but it is only one amp replication and the Nano has it covered...and then provides countless other amps too.

Exactly!

And at the end of the day, the IR-X does a conversion and has a captured power amp anyway, so at that point you've already crossed into the digital world and the resulting tones are similar. I was jonesing for an IR-D but came to the conclusion that if I was going to spend cash that was in the NC ballpark anyway, then I might as well just buy that because it ticked more of my boxes.

Additionally, the NC has stereo outs and time-based / modulation effects; which is really important to me for headphone play let alone everything else.

(I don't give a shit about the pitch block! ha!).

 

[Shredder777]

You're over analyzing it.

I ran the Helix Floor in freakin' 7CM into two amps in stereo, with each amp having pre/post fx. That still was totally fine for both tone and latency. Obviously a totally insane rig to use, but I did it just to try it out.

When the QC released 3 years ago, I owned the Helix Floor, QC and FM3 at the same time. I extensively compared them back to back.

The most important differences are going to be:

• Workflow. At the time the QC was the best onboard UI, the Helix a good in-betweener and the FM3. Axe-Edit had the best computer editor, QC had none back then, and HX Edit is "meh, good enough."
• Effects quality. Not amp/cab sim quality, effects. FM3 > Helix > QC for me.
• Form factor and footswitching. QC is a bit cramped for stomping, but a great desktop unit. Helix Floor has everything you need but is hideously large for my tastes. FM3's 3 footswitches are just not enough IMO for all the features it has, and it's an inelegant, somewhat chonky box that doesn't go that nicely on a pedalboard or desk.

Latency, conversion quality...these are totally irrelevant factors IMO. The top units are all good enough in this regard.

For amp sims, consider if it's more important to you to have good tones, or if you are a stickler about the accuracy of things. This will determine if you are ok with e.g Boss, Hotone, Kemper etc, or if you should go for say Fractal. Getting tones that sound good and are fun to play is easier than ever.

For effects, Fractal rules the roost, but Helix provides a more pedalboard style experience. QC is alright, but not going to blow your socks off.

I sold the QC because I did not trust NDSP's roadmap. It was the right move back then. I sold the Helix Floor mainly because I wanted a desktop friendly unit, and the Helix was definitely not it, while the HX Stomp is too gimped in onboard UI. So FM3 was the compromise, even though I don't like using it without the editor. But I'd still recommend Helix any day for someone looking for a do-it-all floor unit.

IMO the Tone Master Pro is atm where the QC was at release. Unknown roadmap and not a mature product.

If you just want something different to try, the Hotone Ampero 2 Stomp or Stage is pretty inexpensive and is kind of like a "QC meets HX Stomp" in many ways. The Stage has the capture feature which might satisfy you for amp sounds if you have amps to capture, or maybe you can capture your IRX to slap it into the unit. A2 Stomp is likely to get the capture feature next year.

I think you just need to buy a unit or two and just try them for yourself. This is easier if they are something sold by a major retailer and don't cost $1500+ a pop since it's easier to afford a few and return the one(s) you don't like.

Thanks, I really appreciate your reply and your thought process. You have been on this journey longer than I have.

I can understand and respect why you would recommend the Ampero 2 Stomp as a good compromise of features and cost. For similar reasons this is why I've settled on the G11 (Good interface, two loops, good enough amp sims). The Ampero seems to have more utility but one less loop. I could see myself sidegrading to the Ampero Stomp or Stage, especially to free up some space, but I would also need a Morningstar ML5.

You gave good insight into why the QC is possibly underwhelming. And also how the TMP is in a similar situation (light on effects). QC and TMP are the only other boards with two loops however (besides the GT1000 which is dq).

My thinking is that if I have a ToneX or NC I won't be missing Fractal models. The fractal is quite large for only three switches. If I go with Fractal, I would need an expression pedal and also an ML5. I don't believe the FM9 has two loops either, only the FX3.

There is no perfect solution. I'm leaning towards just adding a ToneX.

 

[GTR37]

There was a MS80IR+ thread floating a few weeks ago where I posted side by side Choptones demos of Helix vs new zoom algos. Lets put it this way, if you listen to that and think the Helix algos are "head and shoulders above" then you are probably one of those people who hears the HX artifacts and conflate them with "realistic". That demo example showcases exactly what is wrong with the HX tones to my ears. Even on a low/mid gain amp there is a boxy compression that doesn't breathe.

But that doesn't matter. Helix is far in rearview mirror. Its been ten years they are due an update. I'm sure their next series will be fantastic.

Sure... if we're splitting hairs about that hard to define extra 2% in the accuracy stakes.

But the QC / NC captures are still super enjoyable, accurate enough and satisfying, even if they do sometimes sound very subtly "different" to the Tonex. I quite like the "different", actually.

Similar to how a there's many Kemper users out there that still like its compressed enhanced mids, even though it's technically less accurate than all of the other capture devices these days. Just try it and see if you like it.

Anyway, despite owning an Axe-Fx, I bought the Nano and I've been enjoying it. An Excellent capture on the QC or NC will still sound better than an average capture on Tonex and vice versa - there's so much variation in the different capture processes used by individuals. Some hobbyists and some professionals.

Regardless:

Just get the FM3. It has a plethora of fabulous amps to offer and excellent effects. If you don't like it, the resale value is decent.

And absolutely do not consider the Boss. They blew it!

I agree
I have tried the ToneX and a bunch of the Neural stuff
For me personally not talking cleans but for the Heavier rock stuff my preference is NDSP , they just really have that sound down IMO

 

[mercifulfuzziness]

You're over analyzing it.

I ran the Helix Floor in freakin' 7CM into two amps in stereo, with each amp having pre/post fx. That still was totally fine for both tone and latency. Obviously a totally insane rig to use, but I did it just to try it out.

When the QC released 3 years ago, I owned the Helix Floor, QC and FM3 at the same time. I extensively compared them back to back.

The most important differences are going to be:

• Workflow. At the time the QC was the best onboard UI, the Helix a good in-betweener and the FM3. Axe-Edit had the best computer editor, QC had none back then, and HX Edit is "meh, good enough."
• Effects quality. Not amp/cab sim quality, effects. FM3 > Helix > QC for me.
• Form factor and footswitching. QC is a bit cramped for stomping, but a great desktop unit. Helix Floor has everything you need but is hideously large for my tastes. FM3's 3 footswitches are just not enough IMO for all the features it has, and it's an inelegant, somewhat chonky box that doesn't go that nicely on a pedalboard or desk.

Latency, conversion quality...these are totally irrelevant factors IMO. The top units are all good enough in this regard.

For amp sims, consider if it's more important to you to have good tones, or if you are a stickler about the accuracy of things. This will determine if you are ok with e.g Boss, Hotone, Kemper etc, or if you should go for say Fractal. Getting tones that sound good and are fun to play is easier than ever.

For effects, Fractal rules the roost, but Helix provides a more pedalboard style experience. QC is alright, but not going to blow your socks off.

I sold the QC because I did not trust NDSP's roadmap. It was the right move back then. I sold the Helix Floor mainly because I wanted a desktop friendly unit, and the Helix was definitely not it, while the HX Stomp is too gimped in onboard UI. So FM3 was the compromise, even though I don't like using it without the editor. But I'd still recommend Helix any day for someone looking for a do-it-all floor unit.

IMO the Tone Master Pro is atm where the QC was at release. Unknown roadmap and not a mature product.

If you just want something different to try, the Hotone Ampero 2 Stomp or Stage is pretty inexpensive and is kind of like a "QC meets HX Stomp" in many ways. The Stage has the capture feature which might satisfy you for amp sounds if you have amps to capture, or maybe you can capture your IRX to slap it into the unit. A2 Stomp is likely to get the capture feature next year.

I think you just need to buy a unit or two and just try them for yourself. This is easier if they are something sold by a major retailer and don't cost $1500+ a pop since it's easier to afford a few and return the one(s) you don't like.

Super interesting to read man. About the “stickler about the accuracy of things”… what does that mean? Would somebody listening to the Super reverb in the Helix say “that really doesn’t sound like it” and with the other two “that’s amazing, it’s really the same!” ?? (Hear this in Mick and Dan voices)

 

[jellodog]

I agree
I have tried the ToneX and a bunch of the Neural stuff
For me personally not talking cleans but for the Heavier rock stuff my preference is NDSP , they just really have that sound down IMO

Yup. And although I often like to get all geeky, technical and analyse what I'm hearing; sometimes I try to stop overthinking it and simpy ask myself:

"Am I really enjoying these tones and not wanting to stop playing?"

And the answer was an almost immediate YES, from the moment I unboxed it and booted it up.

Quite the revelation.

 

[laxu]

Thanks, I really appreciate your reply and your thought process. You have been on this journey longer than I have.

I can understand and respect why you would recommend the Ampero 2 Stomp as a good compromise of features and cost. For similar reasons this is why I've settled on the G11 (Good interface, two loops, good enough amp sims). The Ampero seems to have more utility but one less loop. I could see myself sidegrading to the Ampero Stomp or Stage, especially to free up some space, but I would also need a Morningstar ML5.

You gave good insight into why the QC is possibly underwhelming. And also how the TMP is in a similar situation (light on effects). QC and TMP are the only other boards with two loops however (besides the GT1000 which is dq).

My thinking is that if I have a ToneX or NC I won't be missing Fractal models. The fractal is quite large for only three switches. If I go with Fractal, I would need an expression pedal and also an ML5. I don't believe the FM9 has two loops either, only the FX3.

There is no perfect solution. I'm leaning towards just adding a ToneX.

For the record I really, really wanted to love the QC as I think it did sounds very good for the amp sims and captures, I just wasn't sold on its effects at the time but now it has more options. As said, you just need to try it out.

The A2 Stomp is an easy recommendation because it's <450 €, while having a QC-comparable onboard UI, Helix comparable computer editor, effects and amp models that are a mixed bag, but mostly good. I would be way more critical about it if it was 1500 €, but it's not so I can give it way more leeway than a TMP or QC for example.

A few weeks back I was playing it loud through my 4x10, using my BluGuitar as a poweramp to run either the Ampero preamp models or the full amp models. I got some really solid tones out of it, but the amps do tend to lean on being darker than some other modelers, but there's enough range to just make them brighter. If the lack of highs on the IRX was an issue for you, it might be a problem on the Hotone too. I use the rather versatile global EQ to boost the highs to counter this.

But that's like my biggest complaint about about it. If it gets the capture feature, then I just don't see why anyone would buy a Kemper or Nano Cortex over this when it has a full suite of effects, and the capability to run a surprising amount of them.

The Ampero does have a stereo loop, but you need Y-cables for this. You can put "mono L" and "mono R" send/return blocks in multiple places so it seems like it can actually work like two separate mono loops.

 

[laxu]

About the “stickler about the accuracy of things”… what does that mean? Would somebody listening to the Super reverb in the Helix say “that really doesn’t sound like it” and with the other two “that’s amazing, it’s really the same!” ?? (Hear this in Mick and Dan voices)

Well let's say that you have been using a real Super Reverb for years, so you are very familiar with how it works when it's set a particular way, how it feels to play. Then you buy a modeler, you would be more critical about how the modeled Super Reverb works, right? You'd want it to do all the things your realworld counterpart does.

That's where you get into all those little things that I feel Fractal does better than anybody else. I do think Line6 does a lot of the right stuff too.

But if you have never played a real Super Reverb, what do you know? You'd just want something that sounds/feels good to play. Plus even if you have, your amp is not Fractal's or Line6's reference amp. Cab sims, output systems...all that complicates matters even for comparing the real deal to the modeled version.

 

[mercifulfuzziness]

Well let's say that you have been using a real Super Reverb for years, so you are very familiar with how it works when it's set a particular way, how it feels to play. Then you buy a modeler, you would be more critical about how the modeled Super Reverb works, right? You'd want it to do all the things your realworld counterpart does.

That's where you get into all those little things that I feel Fractal does better than anybody else. I do think Line6 does a lot of the right stuff too.

But if you have never played a real Super Reverb, what do you know? You'd just want something that sounds/feels good to play. Plus even if you have, your amp is not Fractal's or Line6's reference amp. Cab sims, output systems...all that complicates matters even for comparing the real deal to the modeled version.

Makes total sense. Also interested what those little things in fractal are but let’s not derail the thread too much

 

[jellodog]

I've owned enough modellers now to know that the cab sim contributes as much as half of the resulting tone.

So if you're using IRs - the choice and quality of IR is of the utmost importance. A shitty choice of IR can make the most meticulously crafted of amp sims sound like ass.

Similarly, the top tier amp modellers of today now sound fairly similar when piped through the same IR. So in some ways, the agony of choice and analysis paralysis can be somewhat mitigated, once one owns a decent selection of go-to IRs and accepts this. Of course, quality of effects and other features are another matter.