NDSP Quad Cortex

[Mikael Dez]

The post metal pioneers One Of My Favourite UK Bands! They're touring their latest album A Cracking Post Metal Banger

Idk wtf post metal is I’m sorry

 

[Mikael Dez]

Idk wtf post metal is I’m sorry

I looked it up and I don’t like it. Whatever floats peoples boats though.

 

[mbenigni]

Probably a better choice than calling it the "Tone Shit" button

See also: Boss Fecal Zone (Waza Crap Edition).

(Which I also like LOL.)

 

[Orvillain]

That's probably more attributable to the sound engineer/room than the gear.

No doubt a huge factor, but then I'd have to explain why my synth setup didn't suffer the same issue. Pfft. I dunno. I just thought in light of the conversation being had here, it was quite a coincidence of an experience.

It has resolved me to never bother with modelling setups for my live rig, regardless of the brand. I just don't even want to attempt it. Though I think out of the lot of them, my Axe FX III would stand the best chance of sounding as good as my Mark V does.

What band?

They're called Telepathy and just released their latest album on Pelagic Records.

 

[fiftyshadesofslay]

So tonight I did one of my synth gigs. One of my favourite UK bands was headlining, their album launch. One of their guitarists has moved from his Orange Rockerverb over to a Quad Cortex. IEM's, modeller routed to FOH. The typical thing.

It was very noticeable during soundcheck. Guitars sounded distant. The drums completely dominated the mix. Guitar lead lines just did not sit on top of the bass like they're supposed to.

And two or three people in the room I spoke to, they said things like the band sounded a bit flat, dull, lifeless. They couldn't put it into tech-nerd words, but I know what they were talking about - it just didn't sound huge and powerful, like a rock band should.

My stuff?? Lots of low-frequency synths and square wave dubstep type tones. It really punched, massively.

So I don't know why the guitars in that band didn't exactly. But what I do know is, this was one of the UK bands that I always loved to see live (played with them a lot over the years in my other band too) and whenever I saw them, their live tones blew me away. But this was definitely not as good, primarily because how distant and "behind everything" the guitars were.

I spoke to the guitarist after the show, and he fully admited he went to the QC for flexibility and weight reasons. He fully admitted that he missed his old amp and it sounded better.

No disrespect to them, because the songs were good, and having heard the album, it is a cracking post-metal banger. But tonight I really didn't get what I wanted from a live guitar band.

Always my experience. I don’t know why but unless it’s a huge venue where everything is through the PA with no stage spill guitars just get lost if they’re direct.

The only way to mitigate this IMO is to have a loud cab on stage with you, then it can work. Take a band like Knocked Loose for example, they sound pretty good but clearly run cabs on stage.

What I never really understood is how other un-amplified instruments such as synths, pianos, backing tracks, acoustic guitars etc all seem to work yet direct guitars get lost?

 

[laxu]

Tying a couple of different threads together: I seem to be the only DSL guy on teh intarwebs who a) likes Lead 2 better than Lead 1, and b) is about ready to glue the Tone Shift button in the "On" position.

 

[Orvillain]

Always my experience. I don’t know why but unless it’s a huge venue where everything is through the PA with no stage spill guitars just get lost if they’re direct.

Yes, my experience too.

What I never really understood is how other un-amplified instruments such as synths, pianos, backing tracks, acoustic guitars etc all seem to work yet direct guitars get lost?

Agreed. I don't understand how last night my synths were putting out proper beefy amounts of bass that was danceable, but the guitars weren't. I don't think it is a case of the PA not being up to the job, even if it is a small 170 cap venue.

 

[AFKAEjay(retired)]

I don’t know why but unless it’s a huge venue where everything is through the PA with no stage spill guitars just get lost if they’re direct.

Imagine how a great drumkit sounds on a recording / big venue PA.
Now think about how it sounds in your rehearsal room…very different right?…much more midrangy.

Stage sound is much more midrangeheavy then most mixes we like / make at foh.
Our great guitarsound that works well in a mix…gets eaten alive by the raw unmixed sounds on stage.
Guitar lives in the mids..a busy part of the spectrum, so congestion happens fast.

An amp on stage is usually more midrangy then the result of what a modeler puts out through fullrange speakers…so it’s survives the midrange jungle better. Amp your modeler through guitarcabs…and your chances are getting better again.

 

[Lysander]

That's probably more attributable to the sound engineer/room than the gear.

Yeah, I gotta agree. Been to many shows where bands used modellers, and results varied from "meh" to "omg that sounds glorious" - QC included.

 

[Orvillain]

Yeah, I gotta agree. Been to many shows where bands used modellers, and results varied from "meh" to "omg that sounds glorious" - QC included.

So if the common reality for most small club bands is that the rooms and sound engineers are subpar, wouldn't it be fair to say that a valve amp is the better choice for that environment??

 

[ian_dissonance]

It’s because the FOH guy didn’t know what to do with it or because the guitarist tried to put his DI tones in a “space”. Don’t do that with DI guitar. It’s great for headphones, bad for loud and live. And for a lot of stuff putting the delays and FX loop stuff before the cab/IR makes a huge difference.

 

[SillyOctpuss]

The last time I used a modeller live I was depping for a local cover band and got buried by the bass player who was using a real amp and cab.

It wasn't until after the show that the sound guy said my signal was so hot he had to compress the hell out of it!!!! I was sending him an instrument level signal that he clearly had no idea how to use. I used the same setup at the previous gig in a different venue and it was mostly fine. I still had problems monitoring but the sound out front was pretty good.

 

[SillyOctpuss]

So if the common reality for most small club bands is that the rooms and sound engineers are subpar, wouldn't it be fair to say that a valve amp is the better choice for that environment??

Or at least an actual cab and speaker.

 

[laxu]

So if the common reality for most small club bands is that the rooms and sound engineers are subpar, wouldn't it be fair to say that a valve amp is the better choice for that environment??

I was at a bar a few years back before the band started playing. When they set up, they sounded like crap - woolly and boomy - until the soundman came around, told the guitarist to take out most of the bass and turn it down a bit. Then they sounded great.

I'd say there's no more likelihood of a traditional rig sounding great than there is with a modeling setup. Traditional rigs just have less ways to mess it up.

 

[SillyOctpuss]

I'd say there's no more likelihood of a traditional rig sounding great than there is with a modeling setup. Traditional rigs just have less ways to mess it up.

If there's less to mess up then you've got a better chance of it sounding good though.

 

[laxu]

If there's less to mess up then you've got a better chance of it sounding good though.

Not if the people working the gear don't know how.

 

[Orvillain]

Not if the people working the gear don't know how.

Yeah this is undoubtedly true. But the guy I'm specifically talking about, has definitely had fantastic tone when I've seen them in the past (at the same venue)

 

[ian_dissonance]

So if the common reality for most small club bands is that the rooms and sound engineers are subpar, wouldn't it be fair to say that a valve amp is the better choice for that environment??

Unfortunately, yeah. Had a whole thread about it awhile back. Personally, guitar cabs are terrible speakers, but they throw a ton of midrange into a space, so in the case of a stage where you even hear the stage sound, it can/does make a difference. Even having a solid "FRFR" on stage at decent volume can fill that gap.

 

[fiftyshadesofslay]

It’s because the FOH guy didn’t know what to do with it or because the guitarist tried to put his DI tones in a “space”. Don’t do that with DI guitar. It’s great for headphones, bad for loud and live. And for a lot of stuff putting the delays and FX loop stuff before the cab/IR makes a huge difference.

Definitely something in this. So many times a modeller user will add high cuts, low cuts, EQ cuts and boosts here and there etc.

In the real world with an amp you’ll just mic it and away you go, there’s no sculpting EQ before you get to the desk.

Yes I’m aware there will be EQ at the desk, but that should be as required for the room and the mix, not because the guitarist read about it on a forum.

 

[Orvillain]

Definitely something in this. So many times a modeller user will add high cuts, low cuts, EQ cuts and boosts here and there etc.

In the real world with an amp you’ll just mic it and away you go, there’s no sculpting EQ before you get to the desk.

Yes I’m aware there will be EQ at the desk, but that should be as required for the room and the mix, not because the guitarist read about it on a forum.

Speaks to the overall philosophy of the approach in my opinion - overengineer everything to fix problems that didn't exist before you overengineered it.