My next modeller

[AFKAEjay(retired)]

Partially, but in general yes. By now I have my main rig with the GT-1000 for anything non-dirt and the HX Stomp for anything dirt (and sometimes even non-dirt, depends on the patch layout which I sometimes vary). For smaller/travel things I can easily pull one of them out (I have a very small 2nd board for the Stomp), depending on what I need to achieve. And that's it. So yes, it is rather consistent.
The main point however being that I just learned to get along with things. The GT-1000's dirt sounds certainly aren't anything to write home about, and yet I actually enjoyed the gigs when I used nothing but the GT.

Yeah…I’d almost say…you can be a rockgod with anything on the market these days.

In general I was very content with the GT. A bit silly, and maybe between my ears: I replaced it cause of the observation that when you play 3rds on B and G string, a pretty loud lower octave was present (drive sounds in particular, more so with x amps). Not relevant in a mix or when a bass player does his thing, but since I do stuff where the sound pallet is super open at times…it started to get on my nerves. In my mind, the phenomenon has something to do with how they make the overdrive sounds feel great in general.

 

[Sascha Franck]

I replaced it cause of the observation that when you play 3rds on B and G string, a pretty loud lower octave was present. Not relevant in a mix or when a bass player does his thing, but since I do stuff where the sound pallet is super open at times…it started to get on my nerves. In my mind, the phenomenon has something to do with how they make the overdrive sounds feel great in general.

Might have a look at that later on, I already noticed you were saying so. But then, as I usually don't use it for dirts, it' not affecting me much.
And fwiw, the loops are actually adding a bit of noise, too. Not enough to get in the way (especially live and also because the rest of my setup is amazingly low noise) but certainly something that rather shouldn't happen.

 

[Sascha Franck]

Aren't captures really only advantageous for People who want to capture their own Gear ?

Well, so far I've stumbled over one capture that I think would give me a sort of hard time to replicate with whatever else I have. But others than that (and it's not really a "key" sound for me) I'm fine for several lifetimes to come with what the HX ecosystem is offering. And I think as a Fractal user I would care even less.

 

[AFKAEjay(retired)]

Might have a look at that later on, I already noticed you were saying so. But then, as I usually don't use it for dirts, it' not affecting me much.
And fwiw, the loops are actually adding a bit of noise, too. Not enough to get in the way (especially live and also because the rest of my setup is amazingly low noise) but certainly something that rather shouldn't happen.

I’m aware of reports of noise issues…I ran preamps (also dirty ones) in the loop of the core…and never did the observation myself tbh. Maybe if you introduce drive after the return it becomes a problem, or with super high gain stuff.
Introducing high gain elements behind a coupe of D/A A/D conversions give noise challenges with many other devices ime. Reamping a DI recorded guitar track for example. I learned a lesson there

 

[Sascha Franck]

I’m aware of reports of noise issues…I ran preamps (also dirty ones) in the loop of the core…and never did the observation myself tbh. Maybe if you introduce drive after the return it becomes a problem, or with super high gain stuff.

It's really not enough to seriously make me worry, but defenitely more than, say, the loop of the Stomp (which is basically neutral).

 

[Sedaxel]

The benefit is in an already built system, with a sizable library of content that you don't have to manage or maintain. That is a cost saving, and can instantly increase the popularity of your device.

The popularity of any device with NAM inside, not only yours. How do you justify your great unit´s price when there´s twenty more with the same tone quality for 100€? I think the big brands are actually terrified by this perspective.

For end users the benefit is continuity. If I want to change from Hotone -> QC, I can't take my favorite captures with me. I'd have to either capture Hotone using the QC (capture of a capture), or capture my favorite real amps again. That's a huge chore.

It´s not user´s benefit what I´m talking about, of course.

NAM is the only thing on the market really suited for this, because of its open source nature.

Yeah, and that´s exactly the reason why it´s not economically attractive to any compay (who looks for earn money).

I mean, I get what you say, but then all of that can be made by any company, no matter the accumulated knowhow from years of research in emulation algos and whatnot. Without knowing a word in guitar amps simulation, you can launch a device with the same tone quality (or better) as any other from reputed companies.

It´s no surprise for me that currently there are just a few companies that bring this to the market. None of them are "big names".

It´s just my point of view, of course.

 

[Mike Oliphant]

The popularity of any device with NAM inside, not only yours. How do you justify your great unit´s price when there´s twenty more with the same tone quality for 100€? I think the big brands are actually terrified by this perspective.

They should just concentrate on making great hardware at an attractive price point.

I, for one, am not shedding any tears at the prospect of the death of the $1600 guitar fx unit...

 

[AFKAEjay(retired)]

s. How do you justify your great unit´s price when there´s twenty more with the same tone quality for 100€?

Defenitly not by a market standard NOT being available in your device

My glass bowl:Either L6 or Fractal will be the first of the Bigboys…they have nothing to loose, only something to win from Tonex/kemper/ndsp.
Use of nam will increase, and the other brands will have to follow. They’d rather see their proprietary format as a unique buying reason…but that’s simply not gonna hold the line.
They will have to come up with an answer to grest ampsounds being a cheap commodity. Glassbowl2: all will offer sub 200,- stuff with quality amps, and we will see more of those being upgradeable to full specs of the platform. They will eat the online mud thrown at them online….but else they will loose the entry level market to pricefighters.



.

 

[Humbug]

As a certified corksniffer (that's not a "T" in the middle of my logo... It is, in fact, a cork.) I much prefer NAM's accuracy. It's not _all_ the way there yet, but impressively close. I think my second choice would be a Cortex. I'm not thrilled by the Kemper myself, but a friend of mine gets great sounds with it. So, whichever one makes you play your best, I guess!

 

[Sedaxel]

They should just concentrate on making great hardware at an attractive price point.

I, for one, am not shedding any tears at the prospect of the death of the $1600 guitar fx unit...

Me neither. I'm just exposing why I think they'll be absolutely reluctant to give NAM a place in their offerings.

I also think the logical evolution will be an improved NAM (lighter, liquid, or whatever). Maybe not even NAM, but other instead. And those big brands without capturing will face a hard way to keep up.

But hey, who knows...

 

[Sedaxel]

My glass bowl:Either L6 or Fractal will be the first of the Bigboys…

I think just the opposite. I think they'll be the last in featuring capturing. Hell, maybe they're the only ones to go it (well, Boss and Zoom, being classical brands, not big as them).

Regarding NAM, hope your right, but as I said, I think that's not going to happen.

 

[[Nathan]]

The popularity of any device with NAM inside, not only yours. How do you justify your great unit´s price when there´s twenty more with the same tone quality for 100€? I think the big brands are actually terrified by this perspective.

If you're a big brand with resources and a reputation in the market and you're all of a sudden terrified by what people have for free on their computers, isn't that a good thing for consumers? IMO none of this should be a race to the bottom, it can be done well and still have a reasonable RRP on the device.

They could make their own version of captures by taking NAM, making some code changes for performance or sonic upgrades and call it [insert brand name] Captures. At this point I dont even care if the end result is a NAM file, the technology is just great (Tonocracy did this, arguably the best part of Tonocracy was the capturing).

But if they wanted to do some kind of actual NAM support on the device then that's HUGE. Hotone/Joyo and the rest of them are never going to hold a candle to the rest of the line6 / fractal ecosystem, but supporting a NAM block is a reason for someone to shell out money on that device. It can all be done and I don't think running away from an open source capturing platform is the way to go. Support it, harness it, make something else of your own, make your own white box modelling the best it can be... the bar has been raised and you either up your game or be left behind.

Fractal I give a pass to, I honestly don't think they ever need to support or look at captures (as much as I'd like them to). People aren't typically judging a Fractal neck and neck against the other modellers. They either love what it can do or they don't care. TMP/QC/Helix and then the rest of the mid tier modellers are more the ones where it should be a slam dunk sales pitch.

 

[Orvillain]

Aren't captures really only advantageous for People who want to capture their own Gear ?
Compared to Component modeling if Helix next gen or Fractal Next Gen decide to jump on this bandwagon I'm pretty sure it will be a side thing for them

Personally, I mostly think capture tech is emperor's clothes territory. I never used to. But after years of trying to get into it, I just prefer proper modelling.

 

[Richard_G]

Without budget constraints, my preference would be to buy Fractal's flagship modeller 19 out of 20 times. At least for the last close to 20 years. But if Line6 released a nice Helix component modelling successor and combined that with the capability of loading NAM captures, they'd sell a hell-of-a-lot of units. Probably one to me as well.

 

[Sascha Franck]

Right now, the only capture playing device I'd buy is the Tonex One. And it wouldn't be because of the capturing.

 

[Sedaxel]

If you're a big brand with resources and a reputation in the market and you're all of a sudden terrified by what people have for free on their computers, isn't that a good thing for consumers?

Of course it´s good for users/costumers. I think Fractal and Line6 I+D efforts deserve the money they ask for it. But time goes by, and AI is now capable of getting incredible tones for free, for anyone. It´s not fair for them... but... life is unfair.

They could make their own version of captures by taking NAM, making some code changes for performance or sonic upgrades and call it [insert brand name] Captures. At this point I dont even care if the end result is a NAM file, the technology is just great (Tonocracy did this, arguably the best part of Tonocracy was the capturing).

Well, you said it: Tonocracy has a fantastic modeling engine (at least I like it a lot), and it has a fantastic calibration and capturing tech. And... Where is Tonocracy now? They had to give it for free and it´s abandoned.

Please don´t misunderstand me. I agree in that featuring NAM (Well, I prefer to say "capturing", since I think NAM still has to be much optimizaed to be much lighter) once and for all implemented in every mfx unit would be great. I´m just saying the brands that NEED money to keep on paying engineers and making benefits just see NAM as a real problem for them.

But if they wanted to do some kind of actual NAM support on the device then that's HUGE. Hotone/Joyo and the rest of them are never going to hold a candle to the rest of the line6 / fractal ecosystem, but supporting a NAM block is a reason for someone to shell out money on that device. It can all be done and I don't think running away from an open source capturing platform is the way to go. Support it, harness it, make something else of your own, make your own white box modelling the best it can be... the bar has been raised and you either up your game or be left behind.

Fractal I give a pass to, I honestly don't think they ever need to support or look at captures (as much as I'd like them to). People aren't typically judging a Fractal neck and neck against the other modellers. They either love what it can do or they don't care. TMP/QC/Helix and then the rest of the mid tier modellers are more the ones where it should be a slam dunk sales pitch.

In the long run (5 or 10 years maybe?), they will have to feature some capturing, in one way or another... or they will die. Nowadays, capturing is still NOT superior to modeling. You know, the static nature of capturing still gives the flexibility and tweakability advantage to modeling. But of course, in a few years, capturing will be able to have flexibility (We´ve seen some attempts, and as research goes on, and CPU power increases, it´s obvious that the day will come). So, for now, they still have the customers quota that still prefer modeling because of that. But... when AI finally was able to get tweakability and maximum precission... what will happen to those "old" simulation algos?

If names like Line6 and Fractal are going to adopt NAM, they´ll be somehow tied to an open source development. They have to be really cautious to develop something to improve it, because then, everyone will use their work.

I don´t know, mates. It´s all especulation, but I think they will try to protect their bussiness, not user convenience. And all signs seem to indicate that neither of them (Fractal / Line6) are going to adopt NAM. And I guess the reasons are those I´ve said. I might be wrong, of course, I´m just thinking out loud, and I NOW NOTHING of the inside of this business.

 

[OneEng]

Well, so far I've stumbled over one capture that I think would give me a sort of hard time to replicate with whatever else I have. But others than that (and it's not really a "key" sound for me) I'm fine for several lifetimes to come with what the HX ecosystem is offering. And I think as a Fractal user I would care even less.

As a Fractal or HX user, it is much more likely that you are concerned with what you can do with the product in terms of getting good tone with good effects .... and possibly playing live so the live workflow needs to be up-to-snuff. Modeling vs capture doesn't matter in this context.

As a certified corksniffer (that's not a "T" in the middle of my logo... It is, in fact, a cork.) I much prefer NAM's accuracy. It's not _all_ the way there yet, but impressively close. I think my second choice would be a Cortex. I'm not thrilled by the Kemper myself, but a friend of mine gets great sounds with it. So, whichever one makes you play your best, I guess!

And for people who value the most accurate capture, NAM is the uncontested king (followed by Cortex as you stated).

Being a Kemper owner, I also agree that from a pure capture point of view, Kemper is in 3rd (fourth if you consider ToneX).

I own a Kemper, and won't be swapping it out for pretty much anything because what it DOES do, it does better than ANY other product on the market IMO. I am able to find a free (or paid) profile, download it easily, and tweak it within minutes to achieve any tone I hear from any song. It has a gig-time interface with the Kemper Foot Controller that has by far the best workflow and usability for a live gig of any of the systems made.

Now, having spent more than one afternoon/evening/late enough that our wives called to ask when we would be done) with friends with an AxeIII Fx, I can say that Fractal is king of the editors and flexibility. No one else is even close IMO. Fractal also has the best efx. Kemper's are good, very very good, but not as extensive as Fractal IMO.

Personally, I don't understand the alure of NAM. What can you do with it other than play around in your basement?

 

[metallica86]

NC user here.

Background: I´ve had/used live Zoom G5n, Atomic Amplifire12, Helix LT, hybrid rig (real amp, analog pedals with Zoom G1XFour for effects), Mooer GE250 with my own MNRS profiles of my rig... and now the NC with analog pedals and a Boss MS-3 for switching and effects.

I´ve tried every profiler (but the original, Kemper, which I´ve heard many times because several mates own it and gig it). Tried GuitarML, Mooer MNRS and NAM profiles.

What made me go to the NC?

1 - I was not fully happy with an ""FRFR"" on the stage. For stage monitoring in a gig, I discovered I VASTLY prefer a real cab behind me. Not necesarily a real amp... but a real cab.

2 - I was not willing to spend 1600€ in a QC and dealing with a few details that I don´t like of it. If I´m going to spend that money, it´s got to be perfect for my needs. Those cramped switches kill me, seriously.

3 - Kemper is not the best capturing device anymore. It´s old... spending that money in something that´s already dated is a big NO for someone with my economic limits. I don´t doubt it´s great, because it is. But it´s been surpassed.

4 - The NC has on-board profiling (which NAM or ToneX don´t have). That´s a guarantee for getting the input gain correctly set in every profile, coming from anyone. NAM is great, but the input gain is the worst enemy if you are after accuracy. In the NC, I just load any profile and inmediatley feel it´s good to great. Not to mention that if you load any Amalgam profile you already are enjoying big time.

5 - I didn´t want, at this point, a full all-in-one unit with all the footswitches and I/Os because there is none in the market that ticks all my boxes... so my only chance was to find a small unit to integrate with my rig. And... I really think the NC is perfect for that. I just need a few reliable captures, a few knobs, good hardware, MIDI, low consumption (avoiding the need of a separate PSU). And it works great for that. I can reliably profile my different rig setups, with very little mistake chances in a couple of minutes... and I don´t feel it different from my NAM captures, actually. Yes, I´m sure there are differences, but I just enjoy my NC captures the same (if not more) as my NAM captures.

6 - As a bonus, it has a few effects (which I find fastastic, by the way). And, if everything goes as expected, it could even have more effects and flexibility in the future. Don´t need it nowadays, but if they arrive someday, it´ll be great.

Don´t buy the NC if you´re after a complete and flexible unit. Don´t do it if you swear for the absolute maximum best of the bests amazing super yadda dadda capturing tech. Don´t expect it to get there either. If you´re OK with its limits and the features it packs CURRENTLY, then its quality will satisfy you.

Can you share a pic of your board with the Nano?
Just curious

 

[laxu]

The popularity of any device with NAM inside, not only yours. How do you justify your great unit´s price when there´s twenty more with the same tone quality for 100€? I think the big brands are actually terrified by this perspective.

It´s not user´s benefit what I´m talking about, of course.

Yeah, and that´s exactly the reason why it´s not economically attractive to any compay (who looks for earn money).

I mean, I get what you say, but then all of that can be made by any company, no matter the accumulated knowhow from years of research in emulation algos and whatnot. Without knowing a word in guitar amps simulation, you can launch a device with the same tone quality (or better) as any other from reputed companies.

It´s no surprise for me that currently there are just a few companies that bring this to the market. None of them are "big names".

It´s just my point of view, of course.

What's the issue with all NAM players on the market? Usability, form factor, built-in effects. For effects there's no shortcuts (at least yet) so you can't become Strymon or Fractal fx just like that, or use a dirt cheap processor to make it cheap.

So I see the more expensive units offering the things you need around NAM captures, maybe at best advertising they can run the highest quality NAM captures or something. There is demand for something like this considering the fake "Tonex Pro" pics that floated around drummed up some excitement.

The talk around modelers is all too much centered around the amp sim stuff. That's the part becoming a commodity.

Maybe they will be advertised more towards pro users, who want to be sure they have something really reliable, that allows complex footswitching for live use, is well supported and so on.

 

[MirrorProfiles]

I can see things getting more modular and a move away from big all in one setups where most users are using less than 5% of what they’re capable of.

We’ve already seen HX One, VP4, ToneX One, and countless little amp only pedals. The big surfboard sized pedals work fine, unless you decide that you prefer another companies amps, or fuzzes, or reverbs or delays. I think the more modular boards let you experiment are try new gear more freely which can be appealing. and you get more dedicated controls and layouts rather than a single interface that has to do absolutely everything. IMO the notion that a single product is going to be all you use is a bit dated.

The big all in ones assume that you’ll be happy with “it’s LIKE” something else - something more modular gives more freedom to do what you want. Obviously nothing stopping you using an axe fx with whatever gear you like, and it integrates it well. Also a chance it’s overkill for many. And I know DI has said about Helix was always intended on being part of the rig rather than a replacement for it, but again, the flagship is big and potentially overkill. HX Stomp is so good for that reason - it feels more like a “it can be whatever you want it to” pedal.