My next modeller

[AFKAEjay(retired)]

Ok, admittedly, for live usage, I would like to profile a handful of things such as my absolute favourite pedal platform patch of the Amplifirebox, my old Laney LC50's clean channel (which is as well excellent for pedal usage) or some software amp creations (combinations of drives, EQs and amps) to consolidate them (and have live access), but none of it is actually really bothering me much, if at all. I can get everything I need live out of what I already have. And then some. There's still so many very decent sounding variations in my current rig(s) that I haven't even explored at all yet.

Afaik you are pretty consistent with the rig you use, so to you the value is different.. but as someone who alternates between QC/Kpp and sometimes flirts with analog rigs, and always brings a guitar cab: Using profiles of stuff I own gives me constancy across rigs & confirmation that digital performs( cause I can benchmark it to what I got (#peaceofmind).)

And, (not your usecase), profiles of preamps of my fav amp(s) into whatever returns of the appropriate size amps I bring/are at the venue, are really contributing for a “ I want a cab person” like I am. Last Sunday…QC 4cm into my dumble clone, alternating between real and digital versions of the preamp of that very amp…spotless!…kinda nerdy cool right?

Also, kinda nice that whenever I switch to another digital devices, I have the analog components to reconstruct my rig.

Admittedly it’s not price/space efficient, all profiles I make are probably out there already..but I kinda like having the analog counterparts around…and the “narrow it down to that” to prevent endless tone searching.

 

[laxu]

OP here :)

I am really not looking for the "best" captures. I am looking for the best balance of tones, features and support. I want a device whose amps and effects sound great (accuracy is a myth anyway - a modeler can only be accurate when compared to a particular example - the one profiled, but all examples are a little different), has a great feature set (strong MIDI, parameter control via MIDI, scenes/snapshots, excellent editor - preferably mobile and desktop), and a company that understands that improvements/enhancements/bug fixes are as important as the initial feature set, and provides updates several times per year to keep the platform viable for years to come.

I've given up on the idea that I will find a ToneX capture of a HiWatt Custom 100 from the early 70's that actually sounds like mine. My HiWatt (now in my son's hands) was a clean punchy monster that could feedback musically while still clean. All the way on 10, it was still only edge of breakup, and only with humbuckers or P90's. But I have "evolved" to where I am searching for tones that make me happy instead. I've been getting some great clean punchy tones from a JTM45 model in my Stomp, and I've let go of the attitude that if it isn't called a HiWatt, its not good enough.

If anything, that Hiwatt experience is probably way more about the volume in the room through a real guitar cab.

The Hotone Ampero II Stomp amp tones are good, but the effects are not all so good (some are fine, others really suck). And the MIDI support is a joke. And moreover, their update cycle is also a joke. And when they do release an update, it is insignificant (except for when they added scenes - which should have been there from the beginning).

After reading your initial description in this post, I felt like the Hotone would be a great fit until I got to the MIDI parameter stuff. The MIDI support is more like "you can do whatever you can do on the onboard UI, and nothing more", but lacks e.g Helix style per param mapping. Which to be fair sucks in its own way when it ditches those mappings if you change models.

I haven't owned the A2 Stomp for that long, but during the time I've owned it, I feel like they've added a bunch of relevant features:

• Capturing. Even if limited to 10 slots.
• Scene naming.
• Send MIDI on footswitch press.
• Some new amps and fx.

But at the same time it's actually impressive there's updates at all when we are talking about somewhat budget range gear. I think cost always needs to be a factor - if it's dirt cheap, updates are just gravy. If it's expensive, it better have updates.

I have not played a Cortex device (neither one), nor a Kemper (not that interested really).

Which gets us to Neural DSP...whose support over the past 3 years has not been impressive. Yes, there are updates, with relevant features, but a lot of that is basically just implementing the stuff they advertised at release. We're talking about a company that took several years to implement a graphic EQ that looks like one.

The Nano Cortex to me feels like it was released in a MVP state when it has one damn effect in each category, despite the appearance of letting you pick from a bunch of options.

NAM may be the future direction for a lot of manufacturers. It's sort of like Linux - it may take a while, but it will catch fire eventually. But I haven't seen the hardware from a significant enough company to make me want one just yet.

I'd like to see that. Different capture ecosystems on Neural DSP, Tonex, Hotone etc...that's just stupid. They should all just use NAM, but instead they all want to build their own walled gardens so you have to buy their device to have access to all this stuff.

 

[Sedaxel]

With that in mind, I'd really like to hear more from Nano Cortex users.

NC user here.

Background: I´ve had/used live Zoom G5n, Atomic Amplifire12, Helix LT, hybrid rig (real amp, analog pedals with Zoom G1XFour for effects), Mooer GE250 with my own MNRS profiles of my rig... and now the NC with analog pedals and a Boss MS-3 for switching and effects.

I´ve tried every profiler (but the original, Kemper, which I´ve heard many times because several mates own it and gig it). Tried GuitarML, Mooer MNRS and NAM profiles.

What made me go to the NC?

1 - I was not fully happy with an "FRFR" on the stage. For stage monitoring in a gig, I discovered I VASTLY prefer a real cab behind me. Not necesarily a real amp... but a real cab.

2 - I was not willing to spend 1600€ in a QC and dealing with a few details that I don´t like of it. If I´m going to spend that money, it´s got to be perfect for my needs. Those cramped switches kill me, seriously.

3 - Kemper is not the best capturing device anymore. It´s old... spending that money in something that´s already dated is a big NO for someone with my economic limits. I don´t doubt it´s great, because it is. But it´s been surpassed.

4 - The NC has on-board profiling (which NAM or ToneX don´t have). That´s a guarantee for getting the input gain correctly set in every profile, coming from anyone. NAM is great, but the input gain is the worst enemy if you are after accuracy. In the NC, I just load any profile and inmediatley feel it´s good to great. Not to mention that if you load any Amalgam profile you already are enjoying big time.

5 - I didn´t want, at this point, a full all-in-one unit with all the footswitches and I/Os because there is none in the market that ticks all my boxes... so my only chance was to find a small unit to integrate with my rig. And... I really think the NC is perfect for that. I just need a few reliable captures, a few knobs, good hardware, MIDI, low consumption (avoiding the need of a separate PSU). And it works great for that. I can reliably profile my different rig setups, with very little mistake chances in a couple of minutes... and I don´t feel it different from my NAM captures, actually. Yes, I´m sure there are differences, but I just enjoy my NC captures the same (if not more) as my NAM captures.

6 - As a bonus, it has a few effects (which I find fastastic, by the way). And, if everything goes as expected, it could even have more effects and flexibility in the future. Don´t need it nowadays, but if they arrive someday, it´ll be great.

Don´t buy the NC if you´re after a complete and flexible unit. Don´t do it if you swear for the absolute maximum best of the bests amazing super yadda dadda capturing tech. Don´t expect it to get there either. If you´re OK with its limits and the features it packs CURRENTLY, then its quality will satisfy you.

 

[AFKAEjay(retired)]

I'd like to see that. Different capture ecosystems on Neural DSP, Tonex, Hotone etc...that's just stupid. They should all just use NAM, but instead they all want to build their own walled gardens so you have to buy their device to have access to all this stuff.

I would not be surprised if they all have code on the shelf to implement that whenever a competitor of substance releases it. Wouldn’t surprise me either if L6 would be that first competitor….even on current hardware. I mean…they are late to the profiling party, no library to make a proprietary format attractive…jump in with a format that’s open, well praised, and content available for it…makes sense to me.

 

[sliberty]

NC user here.

Background: I´ve had/used live Zoom G5n, Atomic Amplifire12, Helix LT, hybrid rig (real amp, analog pedals with Zoom G1XFour for effects), Mooer GE250 with my own MNRS profiles of my rig... and now the NC with analog pedals and a Boss MS-3 for switching and effects.

I´ve tried every profiler (but the original, Kemper, which I´ve heard many times because several mates own it and gig it). Tried GuitarML, Mooer MNRS and NAM profiles.

What made me go to the NC?

1 - I was not fully happy with an ""FRFR"" on the stage. For stage monitoring in a gig, I discovered I VASTLY prefer a real cab behind me. Not necesarily a real amp... but a real cab.

2 - I was not willing to spend 1600€ in a QC and dealing with a few details that I don´t like of it. If I´m going to spend that money, it´s got to be perfect for my needs. Those cramped switches kill me, seriously.

3 - Kemper is not the best capturing device anymore. It´s old... spending that money in something that´s already dated is a big NO for someone with my economic limits. I don´t doubt it´s great, because it is. But it´s been surpassed.

4 - The NC has on-board profiling (which NAM or ToneX don´t have). That´s a guarantee for getting the input gain correctly set in every profile, coming from anyone. NAM is great, but the input gain is the worst enemy if you are after accuracy. In the NC, I just load any profile and inmediatley feel it´s good to great. Not to mention that if you load any Amalgam profile you already are enjoying big time.

5 - I didn´t want, at this point, a full all-in-one unit with all the footswitches and I/Os because there is none in the market that ticks all my boxes... so my only chance was to find a small unit to integrate with my rig. And... I really think the NC is perfect for that. I just need a few reliable captures, a few knobs, good hardware, MIDI, low consumption (avoiding the need of a separate PSU). And it works great for that. I can reliably profile my different rig setups, with very little mistake chances in a couple of minutes... and I don´t feel it different from my NAM captures, actually. Yes, I´m sure there are differences, but I just enjoy my NC captures the same (if not more) as my NAM captures.

6 - As a bonus, it has a few effects (which I find fastastic, by the way). And, if everything goes as expected, it could even have more effects and flexibility in the future. Don´t need it nowadays, but if they arrive someday, it´ll be great.

Don´t buy the NC if you´re after a complete and flexible unit. Don´t do it if you swear for the absolute maximum best of the bests amazing super yadda dadda capturing tech. Don´t expect it to get there either. If you´re OK with its limits and the features it packs CURRENTLY, then its quality will satisfy you.

Thanks for taking the time to write such a detailed response - it was VERY helpful to me. If I were to go with teh NC, I would likely use my HX Stomp for effects (at least for now - until they add stuff to the NC that makes me rethink that). But I could see myself putting the HXS in front of the NC, and just using the Reverb and Delay in the NC as my post effects. Of course placing it in the loop of the HXS is also a possibility (I've done that with ToneX for example). Again, thanks!

 

[sliberty]

I would not be surprised if they all have code on the shelf to implement that whenever a competitor of substance releases it. Wouldn’t surprise me either if L6 would be that first competitor….even on current hardware. I mean…they are late to the profiling party, no library to make a proprietary format attractive…jump in with a format that’s open, well praised, and content available for it…makes sense to me.

I watched a Tone Junkie video where he was predicting that NAM would possibly get rolled into the next Line 6 wave of products. Although, I really don't expect to create any of my own captures, you never know. So if they can roll it in and have it perform really well (something like 5-10 minute full captures), that would be a great addition.

 

[Sascha Franck]

I think one of the reasons for Line 6 to not jump onto the NAM bandwagon would be that the outcome depends too much on the profile quality and apparently still not exactly adressed input level issues. And as they're a pretty big player I'm sure their support would just explode. Maybe it's as well a storage memory issue - I kinda doubt that, but given that NAM captures can easily be more than 50 times as large as a typical HX loaded IR (and the HX series are still limited to just 128 IRs - many people would've loved to see that number being higher), it could as well be that they haven't left much headroom on their devices. I mean, the architecture is close to 10 years old, nobody back then would've seen NAM coming and gaining such a popularity, so they might've left some memory for firmware updates (which defenitely need some space, too) and a bit of headroom but just not enough to save 100 NAM captures on the unit.

 

[Sedaxel]

Thanks for taking the time to write such a detailed response - it was VERY helpful to me. If I were to go with teh NC, I would likely use my HX Stomp for effects (at least for now - until they add stuff to the NC that makes me rethink that). But I could see myself putting the HXS in front of the NC, and just using the Reverb and Delay in the NC as my post effects. Of course placing it in the loop of the HXS is also a possibility (I've done that with ToneX for example). Again, thanks!

Yeah, that'd be a top notch setup, sure!

You're welcome, mate. My pleasure.

 

[OneEng]

OP here :)

I am really not looking for the "best" captures. I am looking for the best balance of tones, features and support. I want a device whose amps and effects sound great (accuracy is a myth anyway - a modeler can only be accurate when compared to a particular example - the one profiled, but all examples are a little different), has a great feature set (strong MIDI, parameter control via MIDI, scenes/snapshots, excellent editor - preferably mobile and desktop), and a company that understands that improvements/enhancements/bug fixes are as important as the initial feature set, and provides updates several times per year to keep the platform viable for years to come.

I've given up on the idea that I will find a ToneX capture of a HiWatt Custom 100 from the early 70's that actually sounds like mine. My HiWatt (now in my son's hands) was a clean punchy monster that could feedback musically while still clean. All the way on 10, it was still only edge of breakup, and only with humbuckers or P90's. But I have "evolved" to where I am searching for tones that make me happy instead. I've been getting some great clean punchy tones from a JTM45 model in my Stomp, and I've let go of the attitude that if it isn't called a HiWatt, its not good enough.

My opinions on what I've tried so far:

Line 6, for me, is the king of modelers. Great amp sounds, great effects, great features and great company support. They lack capture tech (which I really want to adopt).

ToneX as great amp captures available, and plenty of them. Their effects are very good, although too limited to be an all in one for my taste (except as a backup device). And the ToneX One lacks normal MIDI. I am playing with Greg Smith's solution to the MIDI problem, and it seems very promising. But even with that, the app is garbage. I am looking forward to see how the new "editor" turns out. If they hit a home run, ToneX might be my capture device, but that still remains to be seen.

The Hotone Ampero II Stomp amp tones are good, but the effects are not all so good (some are fine, others really suck). And the MIDI support is a joke. And moreover, their update cycle is also a joke. And when they do release an update, it is insignificant (except for when they added scenes - which should have been there from the beginning).

I have not played a Cortex device (neither one), nor a Kemper (not that interested really).

NAM may be the future direction for a lot of manufacturers. It's sort of like Linux - it may take a while, but it will catch fire eventually. But I haven't seen the hardware from a significant enough company to make me want one just yet.

I hope that helps give you a better idea of what I am looking for.

With that in mind, I'd really like to hear more from Nano Cortex users.

So if you are interested in only capture devices, you are really left with:

• Neural plug in and players
• Quad Cortex, Nano Cortex
• ToneX
• Kemper (Stage, Toaster, Rack)

My advice is .... it depends on what you value.

The most accurate capture is the Neural plug in. This is demonstrably true. If you have ALL the amps you care to duplicate, and you ONLY want the capture, and you really only care if it is used on a PC and for recording and plunking around, and you don't care about efx, and you don't want to perform live with it, this is the best.

The QC can be used for a full gig piece of hardware. Some consider the buttons too close together for ergonomics. The EFX are not as good as the Kemper. The routing is actually quite capable.

The Nano Cortex can capture (as good as the QC I suspect); however, the efx are pitiful.

The ToneX has pretty decent capture (although not as accurate as the Neural plug-in), but has even more pitiful effects than the NC.

A used Kemper Stage can be had for ~ $1K. The captures are more difficult to get done well than the other options. They are also not as accurate as the other options. The Kemper IS the best of the bunch when it comes to tweaking an existing capture though (your own, or a free one, or a purchased one). Unless you own a bunch of amps you want to capture, you will likely spend more time tweaking someone else's capture. It is by far the best device in the list to use for live performances. It also has the best efx. It also has the best library of paid and free captures with full efx chains for every purpose under the sun.

I don't quite understand the idea of the Nano Cortex and ToneX if you also intend to build an efx chain outside of these devices (that both offer only pitiful efx capabilities). Once you add all the needed pedals, pedal boards, cables, etc to achieve what the Kemper Stage can do, you are easily in a completely different price range (I am guessing 1.5-2K) ... and then you have to find a way to automate everything with an expensive MIDI solution to get the same integrated capabilities.

Anyway, I know you said you aren't interested in a Kemper. Is it the price, size, or something you heard about that has turned you off? I can say that it is used by more touring musicians than any other digital modeler out there from all the information I can find and my own anecdotal experience.

If you need something to play with in a band jam, then having a good pedal setup is critical. If you intend to do any covers, you will need good efx.

What do you intend to do with this when you get it?

 

[[Nathan]]

I think one of the reasons for Line 6 to not jump onto the NAM bandwagon would be that the outcome depends too much on the profile quality and apparently still not exactly adressed input level issues. And as they're a pretty big player I'm sure their support would just explode. Maybe it's as well a storage memory issue - I kinda doubt that, but given that NAM captures can easily be more than 50 times as large as a typical HX loaded IR (and the HX series are still limited to just 128 IRs - many people would've loved to see that number being higher), it could as well be that they haven't left much headroom on their devices. I mean, the architecture is close to 10 years old, nobody back then would've seen NAM coming and gaining such a popularity, so they might've left some memory for firmware updates (which defenitely need some space, too) and a bit of headroom but just not enough to save 100 NAM captures on the unit.

Someone like a Line6 or a Fractal could approach NAM captures in a few ways.

- They could just fork NAM and brand it as their own... at the very least we know the NAM tech is solid and the captures done on that platform will be high quality. The more I think about it the more realistic this approach is for a number of reasons (from a business point of view).

- They could do things in a way where only captures made on their hardware will playback, but those captures could also work outside of the ecosystem via normal NAM players. This would be great for users because its standardised hardware for capturing as well as being able to do one capture and share/sell it across multiple ecosystems. This might not be so great for the company because maybe they want to have some USP for their ecosystem, but if they dont care about this then it's a pretty compelling offering for users

- They could just allow anything to be played on their hardware. I don't think we'll ever see this from a L6/Fractal especially with the amount of tinkering being done with hyper training and all that. You just know people will load up a juicy profile and the hardware unit wont be able to handle it then all of a sudden it's complaints about the unit. It's kind of why I think just leveraging the technology and doing their own thing is probably the realistic approach, but it also is an option.

So I wouldn't say never say never there's certainly ways to do it, just needs to make sense if its worth their while.

 

[2dor]

Someone like a Line6 or a Fractal could approach NAM captures in a few ways.

- They could just fork NAM and brand it as their own... at the very least we know the NAM tech is solid and the captures done on that platform will be high quality. The more I think about it the more realistic this approach is for a number of reasons (from a business point of view).

- They could do things in a way where only captures made on their hardware will playback, but those captures could also work outside of the ecosystem via normal NAM players. This would be great for users because its standardised hardware for capturing as well as being able to do one capture and share/sell it across multiple ecosystems. This might not be so great for the company because maybe they want to have some USP for their ecosystem, but if they dont care about this then it's a pretty compelling offering for users

- They could just allow anything to be played on their hardware. I don't think we'll ever see this from a L6/Fractal especially with the amount of tinkering being done with hyper training and all that. You just know people will load up a juicy profile and the hardware unit wont be able to handle it then all of a sudden it's complaints about the unit. It's kind of why I think just leveraging the technology and doing their own thing is probably the realistic approach, but it also is an option.

So I wouldn't say never say never there's certainly ways to do it, just needs to make sense if its worth their while.

Absolutely. Anybody doing NAM support in hardware will need to set some limits on the models / profiles.

 

[Sascha Franck]

- They could just fork NAM and brand it as their own... at the very least we know the NAM tech is solid and the captures done on that platform will be high quality. The more I think about it the more realistic this approach is for a number of reasons (from a business point of view).

- They could do things in a way where only captures made on their hardware will playback, but those captures could also work outside of the ecosystem via normal NAM players. This would be great for users because its standardised hardware for capturing as well as being able to do one capture and share/sell it across multiple ecosystems. This might not be so great for the company because maybe they want to have some USP for their ecosystem, but if they dont care about this then it's a pretty compelling offering for users

I think both of these would gain very little attractivity among folks, simply because you couldn't just surf ToneHunt and grab whatever you feel like. Also, while easier for them to make, they'd possibly drown in requests to deliver this or that capture.
Otoh, the way Overloud is doing things seems to work at least somewhat well.

Would of course be a bit different in case they allowed capturing on their own devices (and maybe fast online training for all registered users), but that'd mean an additional format and my rough guess would be that it's a little too late for that. Might work fine for a smaller company such as Hotone, where people may look at things as a nice-to-have addon, but people would expect top tier sounds and variety from L6.

- They could just allow anything to be played on their hardware. I don't think we'll ever see this from a L6/Fractal especially with the amount of tinkering being done with hyper training and all that. You just know people will load up a juicy profile and the hardware unit wont be able to handle it then all of a sudden it's complaints about the unit. It's kind of why I think just leveraging the technology and doing their own thing is probably the realistic approach, but it also is an option.

In case they were going for that approach, they'd need at least *big* information stuff "stickers" everywhere, informing people why some captures possibly wouldn't work. Which is why I also think this is unlikely to happen.

 

[Sedaxel]

I just don´t see NAM being implemented in any major brand unit. NAM is great, yeah... but:

- Where´s the benefit for a company using an open source engine that anyone can use for free? They will try by any allowable means to not support such that thing. Business is business. Well, obviously there is a massive wave that would maybe wash them if they don´t play the game, but they will delay it as much as possible.

- NAM, being great, is not ideal for a cost optimizaed hardware platform. It´s very CPU intensive. It still can be much improved by more efficient neural nets (and it will be, for sure).

While I see brands implementing capturing sooner or later (not doing it will surely mean a comercial disaster), I don´t see it´s going to be NAM.

 

[laxu]

I just don´t see NAM being implemented in any major brand unit. NAM is great, yeah... but:

- Where´s the benefit for a company using an open source engine that anyone can use for free? They will try by any allowable means to not support such that thing. Business is business. Well, obviously there is a massive wave that would maybe wash them if they don´t play the game, but they will delay it as much as possible.

- NAM, being great, is not ideal for a cost optimizaed hardware platform. It´s very CPU intensive. It still can be much improved by more efficient neural nets (and it will be, for sure).

While I see brands implementing capturing sooner or later (not doing it will surely mean a comercial disaster), I don´t see it´s going to be NAM.

The benefit is in an already built system, with a sizable library of content that you don't have to manage or maintain. That is a cost saving, and can instantly increase the popularity of your device.

For example the big issue on my Hotone, apart from the 10 capture slot limit, is that there are just fewer captures out there compared to Tonex, QC, NAM, Kemper etc because the feature is new for the platform and it's not as popular as those other products.

For end users the benefit is continuity. If I want to change from Hotone -> QC, I can't take my favorite captures with me. I'd have to either capture Hotone using the QC (capture of a capture), or capture my favorite real amps again. That's a huge chore.

NAM is the only thing on the market really suited for this, because of its open source nature.

 

[Sascha Franck]

I would predict that NAM will become a sort of standard in the modeling world one day. Just as IRs are a standard that you need to support. And it's actually sort of comparable by the outcome as well, as there's gazillions of IRs that just sound bad or even "wrong" (as in being captured by folks having no idea).
It'll likely take some time until then, though.

 

[Sascha Franck]

Afaik you are pretty consistent with the rig you use, so to you the value is different..

Partially, but in general yes. By now I have my main rig with the GT-1000 for anything non-dirt and the HX Stomp for anything dirt (and sometimes even non-dirt, depends on the patch layout which I sometimes vary). For smaller/travel things I can easily pull one of them out (I have a very small 2nd board for the Stomp), depending on what I need to achieve. And that's it. So yes, it is rather consistent.
The main point however being that I just learned to get along with things. The GT-1000's dirt sounds certainly aren't anything to write home about, and yet I actually enjoyed the gigs when I used nothing but the GT.

 

[Jarick]

If lower budget units like Headrush and Mooer can make captures, I'm sure Line 6 could develop their own technology.

Trying to put on my Line 6 hat though, how will that change user interaction? Will captures be a leap forward or will it be a distraction? Do you allow users to capture their own gear or do you only offer curated captures? Is separate hardware going to be required?

I would be shocked if that's an update to their current hardware platform, although I would guess the big units with mic preamps could handle it. Just don't know about the CPU and memory required. I could see it as a future platform feature though, maybe that's the big draw with Helix 2.

 

[Stone]

Aren't captures really only advantageous for People who want to capture their own Gear ?
Compared to Component modeling if Helix next gen or Fractal Next Gen decide to jump on this bandwagon I'm pretty sure it will be a side thing for them

 

[2dor]

Aren't captures really only advantageous for People who want to capture their own Gear ?

Absolutely. I think that's really where the goods are at.

 

[Stone]

Absolutely. I think that's really where the goods are at.

Makes a lot of sense especially for the gigging musician, no need to haul around 2-3 amps, + 4x12 cabs and coffin sized pedal boards lol