Minor keys - do they really exist?

[TSJMajesty]

yeah the ascent/descent thing is what I was always taught as well and why its called the melodic scale

You're the first person that I've ever seen here or anywhere else agree with that definition!

WRT your question (assuming I understood your gist) about keys..., the way I understand it is, the key a song is called out does have something to do with how those notes and chords are played. Cuz you're right: Why do you call a song in the key of Am, when it uses the same notes as the key of C?

To me, it comes down to how you phase the melodies within. Which then gets into modes.

Seems to me there is some overlap when discussing music theory. Not to mention terms that get incorrectly interchanged. I'm sure I've done it. Even though I try not to...

 

[Ed DeGenaro]

Very informative!

I guess it ended up being Ionian and Aeolian because they are the two modes with the fundamentally distinct sounds of ‘happy’ and ‘sad’.
The other modes don’t have as strong a voicing, as they seem to be mixing flavours.

Well of the unaltered major scale Lydian is the brightest and locrian the darkest.

Also Dorian preceded major and minor or Ionian and aeolian by a long time.

It exists as what they call an outward radiating scale.
Start with an d
Add a 4th above or fourth below
a d g

Add their 5th
E a d g c

There’s your A minor pentatonic
Add two more
B e a d g c f
And there’s your D Dorian.

 

[Ed DeGenaro]

So is it incorrect to refer something as a "minor key" ? Typically when someone is talking about a minor key they are referring to the natural minor which is the same notes as the aeolian mode. Melodic and harmonic minors in written music don't have key signatures they're written as accidentals. Of course if a song is being described as in a minor key its still just the same key signature as the relative major

Which alll of this just kind of boils back to the whimsical pondering of the thread title

No minor key is perfectly fine but if it’s a minor key it’ll more often the not have a V7 not a v7.
And the melodic choices will reflect the ♮3 of the Ⅴ7 (the ♮7 of the key)

As in Am...it'll have E7 A-

Natural minor will literally be a modal thing in aeolian

And there are key sigs specifically fir melidic minor, but no one in their right mind uses them..

 

[Ed DeGenaro]

You're the first person that I've ever seen here or anywhere else agree with that definition!

WRT your question (assuming I understood your gist) about keys..., the way I understand it is, the key a song is called out does have something to do with how those notes and chords are played. Cuz you're right: Why do you call a song in the key of Am, when it uses the same notes as the key of C?

To me, it comes down to how you phase the melodies within. Which then gets into modes.

Seems to me there is some overlap when discussing music theory. Not to mention terms that get incorrectly interchanged. I'm sure I've done it. Even though I try not to...

Key is the melody and not the chords.

 

[Ed DeGenaro]

Ed, what's the deal with the Melodic Minor scale? I was taught in school you raised the 6th & 7th of the minor scale a half step, but only when ascending, and put them back to natural when descending.

But I've never seen anyone on the internet say that. It's simply stated as raising both notes, and never any mention of which way the music is going, i.e., whether it's ascending or descending.

Clarification?

In classical it's used exactly like that.
In Jazz it's only the ascending version, hence at times called Jazz Minor

 

[TSJMajesty]

Key is the melody and not the chords.

Really?

So all those times at band rehearsal, and someone comes in with a chord progression..., say it uses A, D, E, and F#m, it doesn't mean it's in the key of A, until we put a melody to it?

 

[TSJMajesty]

In classical it's used exactly like that.
In Jazz it's only the ascending version, hence at times called Jazz Minor

Aah, ok that makes sense. I was taught that definition when I played clarinet in concert band.

 

[spawnofthesith]

No minor key is perfectly fine but if it’s a minor key it’ll more often the not have a V7 not a v7.
And the melodic choices will reflect the ♮3 of the Ⅴ7 (the ♮7 of the key)

As in Am...it'll have E7 A-

Natural minor will literally be a modal thing in aeolian

And there are key sigs specifically fir melidic minor, but no one in their right mind uses them..

But if we're venturing to the E7 rather than the Em7 when playing in Am aren't we technically departing from the "rules" of the key so to speak? (and to clarify, I know you know your stuff not questioning you just trying to learn )

 

[Ed DeGenaro]

So if we're in major that are the close and nit so close related chords to it...

In minor...

 

[spawnofthesith]

That's totally wild, never seen anything like that before. Not sure I totally understand it either but saving into my files for sure

 

[Ed DeGenaro]

But if we're venturing to the E7 rather than the Em7 when playing in Am aren't we technically departing from the "rules" of the key so to speak? (and to clarify, I know you know your stuff not questioning you just trying to learn )

No because Am can be aeolian, melodic, harmonic minor.
So E7 resides in A harmonic and A melodic.

Stuff does not need to line up 1:1 what it needs to do is support the melody and travel harmonically sensibly from the chord it comes from to the chord it goes to.

Let's say your in A and have the note C you wanna harmonize.

You can do 2 bars Am

Or 1 bar E7♭9♯5 to Am

Or
F♯ø F7| E7♯5 A-6

E------
B--13---13---13--13
G--14---14---13--12
D--14---13---12--14
A-------------------12
E--14---13---12

 

[FuzzyAce]

- YouTube

Auf YouTube findest du die angesagtesten Videos und Tracks. Außerdem kannst du eigene Inhalte hochladen und mit Freunden oder gleich der ganzen Welt teilen.

youtube.com

I'm scared to click on this..

 

[PLX]

 

[unix-guy]

Ed, what's the deal with the Melodic Minor scale? I was taught in school you raised the 6th & 7th of the minor scale a half step, but only when ascending, and put them back to natural when descending.

But I've never seen anyone on the internet say that. It's simply stated as raising both notes, and never any mention of which way the music is going, i.e., whether it's ascending or descending.

Clarification?

My understanding is that scenario applies only to classical composition.

 

[FuzzyAce]

Has a Russian flare to it.

 

[TSJMajesty]

Has a Russian flare to it.

It does. I would've liked to hear it end on a Major chord though. That'd been the icing to my ears.

 

[V|J]

Well of the unaltered major scale Lydian is the brightest and locrian the darkest.

Also Dorian preceded major and minor or Ionian and aeolian by a long time.

It exists as what they call an outward radiating scale.
Start with an d
Add a 4th above or fourth below
a d g

Add their 5th
E a d g c

There’s your A minor pentatonic
Add two more
B e a d g c f
And there’s your D Dorian.

Ah ok, why do you thinkthe Ionian and Aeolian then became so popular? Enough-to define forthcoming music ?

Very useful charts, btw. Thanks!!

 

[Ed DeGenaro]

Ah ok, why do you thinkthe Ionian and Aeolian then became so popular? Enough-to define forthcoming music ?

Very useful charts, btw. Thanks!!

While Dorian, Lydian and Phrygian modes do offer symmetric tetrachords (i.e., patterns of whole and half steps), they did not lend themselves as effectively to the functional harmonic structures that characterized later Western music. The tonic-dominant relationships that became central to Western tonal music were less straightforward in these modes.

Harmonic practices, including the use of triads and functional harmony, favored the major and natural minor scales. The Ionian mode, with its strong tonic-dominant relationships, became is foundation for tonal music.

The shift towards Ionian and Aeolian modes in Western music was a gradual process influenced by historical, theoretical, and aesthetic factors.

Theorists in the Renaissance began to formalize the concepts of tonality, emphasizing the importance of the tonic and dominant relationships, which are most clearly defined in the Ionian and Aeolian modes.

While Dorian and Phrygian modes were part of the musical lexicon, they did not fulfill the evolving needs of Western music in terms of harmony and expressiveness in the way that the major and natural minor scales did.

The result was the establishment of a tonal system that prioritized these two modes, shaping the direction of Western music for centuries to come.

 

[Ed DeGenaro]

Ah ok, why do you thinkthe Ionian and Aeolian then became so popular? Enough-to define forthcoming music ?

Very useful charts, btw. Thanks!!

To go with that "cosmic" layout...

If you wanna transpose and write them out yourself...

 

[Eagle]

It’s all about context. All harmony is about context.
You can describe everything in the key of C major but it’s not going to be helpful to the cadences.