Line 6's stance on profiling

[pipelineaudio]

This is NOT a dichotomy

I see the arguments for why they may not want to bother, or weird ones regarding not stepping on kemper's toes, but it seems like this is a road every system is going to need as at least an option going into the future.

Will it happen?

Should it happen?

I'd pull up the usual Venn diagrams but this usually gets down to emotion rather than logic.

 

[Fireproof]

Haven’t they stated they currently aren’t interested in going down that path?

 

[pipelineaudio]

Yeah, that’s why I started the thread. Or at least some people there have stated that.

 

[Fireproof]

If Kemper was the only one doing it still, I can understand staying away. But with tone-matching, and capturing, and now software/plugin makers getting into it - it seems they would be smart to add that capability to some degree.

 

[jellodog]

This is NOT a dichotomy

I see the arguments for why they may not want to bother, or weird ones regarding not stepping on kemper's toes, but it seems like this is a road every system is going to need as at least an option going into the future.

Will it happen?

Should it happen?

I'd pull up the usual Venn diagrams but this usually gets down to emotion rather than logic.

What are the usual venn diagrams?

My emotion tells me that I couldn't care less about profiling, and logic tells me that modelling is only getting better with the advantages of being able to change knob (and component) values with more predictable and flexible results.

Disclosure: I've never tried a Kemper or QC profile

I suppose this thread could be where someone convinces me that I should care? Go for it! Change my mind!

 

[Fireproof]

What are the usual venn diagrams?

My emotion tells me that I couldn't care less about profiling, and logic tells me that modelling is only getting better with the advantages of being able to change knob (and component) values with more predictable and flexible results.

Disclosure: I've never tried a Kemper or QC profile

I suppose this thread could be where someone convinces me that I should care? Go for it! Change my mind!

I’ve had Kemper and QC. And Helix and now Fractal. I don’t know if you need anyone to change your mind. If you were a touring artist with several favorite amps that you wanted to take with on the road, then a Kemper or profiler would allow you to do that. But I didn’t really care for “snapshots/profiles” of a particular amp at particular settings. I prefer interacting with a “model” like I would a normal amp. And since Fractal models are not only realistic to the point of being indistinguishable (to me) plus enabling me to do other fun stuff like messing with bias, sag, tube types, etc., that’s what works best for ME.

 

[paisleywookiee]

It does seem the trend is towards profiling/capturing. Kemper, Positive Grid, whatever the Mooer Xerox of the Kemper was, now the QC and ToneX.
It seems weird that Line 6 won’t go at least the Fractal route, with EQ matching.
I do like Helix though, and I’m excited to see what they’ve got in store next.

 

[KingsXJJ]

I just want an AI chip that can “listen” to a song I feed it and give me THAT tone In a preset.

And offer normalized scenes for stage, recording and headphones.

 

[James Freeman]

I would rather have more frequent updates with requested full amp models, but I also understand the appeal of "instant pie" with captures.

Maybe Line 6 needs to invent a faster way to model and deliver full amp models?
Maybe figure a way to let the people add models that are not captures?

I do get frustrated that some basic Marshalls and Boogies are not in the Helix and probably will never be.

 

[pipelineaudio]

I have a very specific for instance....

Putting asbestos suit on

I REALLY love the sound of the 5150 in Bias, I fully understand it sounds nothing like a 5150, that's not the point.

I have tried like hell using eq's, matching eq's, capturing eq's into IRs and everything else i could think of. i can't even get it close in Helix, and I'm not sure why.

I can immediately get this sound using revalver's (or whatever the next version is called) capture system, I can immediately get it using audio assault's capture. These two as far as I know are not a dynamic capture system which (I think) people claim about the kemper and neuralQC

I'd love to get this sound on the helix and I figure I should have been able by now after owning it for a year or so, but I still epic fail

 

[the-trooper]

While I also find the "not stepping on Kemper's toes" argument weird, I don't care about profiles, I'm not interested in them, I don't use them or ever plan on using them. I'd be fine with them never adding it and just continuing to improve what they're doing with modeling.

I find the whole profiles market weird. Every single preset someone else made that I tried on Helix, either paid or free, did not work for me. I changed and tweaked every one. I was shocked seeing some payed ones, how dumbed down they are and how someone charges for that and how someone pays for that.
I'm guessing it would be the same with profiles. It's a snapshot of an amp that works for that person with their guitar, pickups, speakers, in their space in their context. For me at least.

But I'm sure there are plenty of people who would love a Helix with profiling capabilities. Or even better, imagine HX Stomp which costs, what, one third of the Kemper, with profiling

 

[pipelineaudio]

Oh man, just tried it with the new free one and got my favorite bias sound as well!

 

[jellodog]

I have a very specific for instance....

Putting asbestos suit on

I REALLY love the sound of the 5150 in Bias, I fully understand it sounds nothing like a 5150, that's not the point.

I have tried like hell using eq's, matching eq's, capturing eq's into IRs and everything else i could think of. i can't even get it close in Helix, and I'm not sure why.

I can immediately get this sound using revalver's (or whatever the next version is called) capture system, I can immediately get it using audio assault's capture. These two as far as I know are not a dynamic capture system which (I think) people claim about the kemper and neuralQC

I'd love to get this sound on the helix and I figure I should have been able by now after owning it for a year or so, but I still epic fail

Fair enough that you got the 5150 sound you wanted with a profile. I can see now why you feel this way.

But really this particular issue is with the perceived differences or accuracy of the Helix model, rather than all modelling vs profiling, no?

 

[pipelineaudio]

I don't know, I think its just me being unable to get the settings right.

But it COULD be the different way these things make distortion.

I don't think people would say BIAS is more "accurate" than Helix...I guess they might, but I don't think most would.

Its weird that so far three other sets of code can nail it to the point where I couldn't ABX between them, but I can't figure how to do it thru brute force on the Helix.

One thing that really is strange to me is that even when I make an EQ capture into an IR, I can't get the helix to get close...I keep thinking this has to do with the nature of the way some of these different codebases make distortion, but I don't know for sure

 

[MIJLOVER]

Maybe Line 6 needs to invent a faster way to model and deliver full amp models?

Interestingly, Ben Adrian actually mentioned they also wanted a quicker way to model amps. Whether that would entail using machine learning or not, he couldn’t say.

But it does imply that Line 6 also wants to be able to deliver amp and effects models faster. But I don’t know whether they’ll change their current approach, and I don’t know even know if I would like them to?

In the end, I trust they’ll use their better judgment and make the right call as to which tech they’ll use.

 

[jellodog]

I don't know, I think its just me being unable to get the settings right.

But it COULD be the different way these things make distortion.

I don't think people would say BIAS is more "accurate" than Helix...I guess they might, but I don't think most would.

Its weird that so far three other sets of code can nail it to the point where I couldn't ABX between them, but I can't figure how to do it thru brute force on the Helix.

One thing that really is strange to me is that even when I make an EQ capture into an IR, I can't get the helix to get close...I keep thinking this has to do with the nature of the way some of these different codebases make distortion, but I don't know for sure

I felt that way about a number of models in the Helix and got frustrated with that in the end. But I don't feel that's true concerning the FAS stuff. There's no doubt that the Helix is an amazing device and the effects are great, though. I used to love playing with the Space Echo, and the last round of reverb updates were excellent.

@hemmelight and I were playing the Blue channel of the 5150 III model yesterday on the FAS FM3, having just played the real amp in a music store an hour before (through the exact same cab), and the Fractal model sounded right to us.

Yes, we took our own cab with us to the music store

 

[KingsXJJ]

This is why we need AI to get us in the neighborhood. And then use it’s analysis of our guitar input and playing style to create a profile. Neural’s idea plus one.

 

[pipelineaudio]

I have an AXE FX II at work, I really like it, never actually tried to try and match it to BIAS, I'll see if I can get down there today and try just that.

I love my helix, and don;t want to upset anyone, but I really do have a much easer time getting the amp sounds I want out of the Axe FX...

I wish I could describe what I'm hearing in the distortion between some systems and others...hell, I got closer to Bias' sound using our compressor plugin, NOT an amp sim at all, our %$%^ compressor, than I could with Helix so far....I wasn't even trying, it was by accident

 

[pipelineaudio]

Damn, kills me watching that old video...Our clipper we added as an afterthought gets me so close, as do a lot of the free amp plugins...I just can't get that "hardness" (I wish I could describe better, I hate words that don't refer to testable units!) with Helix, no idea how

 

[tekbow]

I need something clarified, but a profile is static right? It's a shot of an amp at particular settings? Now I realise there's a tone stack in the kemper etc, but those won't behave in the way the profiled amp will?

Do Line 6 and Fractal do component level modelling? I think I remember reading something years back about strymon not trying to ballpark the output of a given analogue unit, but the DSP actually modelled the circuitry at component level.