Line 6 Helix Stadium Talk

[molul]

My point is more that companies know that the average user does care about accurate captures and models.

I wouldn't say that. A small portion of nerds give accuracy a lot of importance, but my perception is that the average user cares more about the unit being able to sound great, then about usability.

 

[Chocol8]

There have been a LOT of complaints for many years about how digital doesn't "feel" the same. That's an accuracy issue and it's because there is a LOT more to accuracy than frequency response. I think some of the problem is with power amps and FRFR units, but far from all, and thats an area where we are seeing significant gains in the latest gen technology.

So, yes, accuracy does matter and more than "nerds" have noticed and care.

 

[synthpenguin]

False premise. How do you know what the average user cares about? Prove it.

. . . When enough of those folks who DO have that ability hit the web with their findings that your platform is less accurate than the competition, average users are going to care.

So do you think the average user cares about accuracy then?

Anyway, I’m not making a formal claim, so I’m not really interested in conducting polling to prove it or not (just like I’m sure you’re not about your claims about what the average user wants). That’s my perception based on existing in the world and talking to people. It may be wrong. We all have our biases.

But looping back to my original point, it’s obviously what the companies making capture and models based on real amps (an important distinction) think customers want, and they presumably have done the actual market research.

This is silly and off topic, and I don’t own this product, so I’m going to stop now lol.

Stadium seems awesome and is on the right track. Line 6 obviously care about making accurate models and captures, as well as excellent original amps (it would be cool if they did more of those with Agoura too!), and that’s great imo. I’m excited to see what they do in the future, and I’m really interested to try Proxy at some point.

 

[molul]

So, yes, accuracy does matter and more than "nerds" have noticed and care.

Honestly, my experience (not to be taken as universal truth) is that most people I've talked to about modelers in real life tell me "this modeler sounds awesome", not "this modeler is incredibly accurate".

Only in guitar forums (where the average user is a gear nerd) I've seen "The neverending holy quest for accuracy".

That's why I think accuracy is way more niche than good sound or user experience.

Not that accuracy should be ignored, but I wouldn't make it the main focus of any device, if it wants to sell. Good amp sounds, good effects library, great UI, cool features... Those look like bigger selling points, imho.

 

[OneEng]

Unfortunately this isn't so. But it's not about the sound.
An analog amp's clean channel stays at its settings, no matter how much I switch presets calling that very channel up.
You really want to force me into another global blocks discussion round, don't you?

I believe that Kemper has this feature, but I don't use it as I no longer "THINK" about my digital amp as a recreation of my old tube amp having "channels". It is an interesting line of discussion though. For those coming from an amp rig (anyone that hasn't been using a digital amp for a long time ..... so most everyone in the new market), channel thinking might be quite common.

I get it.

My point was more about how I can bring my 11 lb Kemper in a rack to a gig and have every amp tone I want to use in that gig right at my feet. My load in is 1 trip (3 space roto routed rack, Shoulder strap bag with cables and foot controller, 2 guitars). I get perfect recreation of my tones every gig. I get bluetooth set control via BandHelper so the only time I touch my foot controller is within a song (and looks like Stadium has a solution for this as well!).

I could never go back to a tube amp rig now. It just doesn't make any sense at all to me.

I wouldn't say that. A small portion of nerds give accuracy a lot of importance, but my perception is that the average user cares more about the unit being able to sound great, then about usability.

My perception as well. Also my anecdotal observations of the people I know that use digital amp devices.

There have been a LOT of complaints for many years about how digital doesn't "feel" the same. That's an accuracy issue and it's because there is a LOT more to accuracy than frequency response. I think some of the problem is with power amps and FRFR units, but far from all, and thats an area where we are seeing significant gains in the latest gen technology.

So, yes, accuracy does matter and more than "nerds" have noticed and care.

Is it an accuracy issue though? My thought is that it is more about the amp-in-the-room experience vs a mic'ed version of the guitar tone (your suggestion about the power amps and FRFR units).

Still, most people will never sit in a room and A/B a digital amp capture or modeler to the real amp. Only a very very tiny percentage will.

I do believe for those that DO compare with their own ears, the amp-in-the-room difference is the most pronounced (vs the FOH sound after micing the cab).

Honestly, my experience (not to be taken as universal truth) is that most people I've talked to about modelers in real life tell me "this modeler sounds awesome", not "this modeler is incredibly accurate".

Only in guitar forums (where the average user is a gear nerd) I've seen "The neverending holy quest for accuracy".

That's why I think accuracy is way more niche than good sound or user experience.

Not that accuracy should be ignored, but I wouldn't make it the main focus of any device, if it wants to sell. Good amp sounds, good effects library, great UI, cool features... Those look like bigger selling points, imho.

I agree with this exactly.

When you go to GC and see someone auditioning a Helix or other digital amp, they are wearing headphones .

 

[Karl Houseknecht]

There have been a LOT of complaints for many years about how digital doesn't "feel" the same. That's an accuracy issue and it's because there is a LOT more to accuracy than frequency response. I think some of the problem is with power amps and FRFR units,

If you mean the problem is simply volume in the room then I agree. I think most of the issue is people are used to loud tube amps. Playing at comparative whisper levels doesn't really lend well to "feel".

 

[JiveTurkey]

If I am using a modeler; I pick an amp model I know and love and, big shocker; expect it to sound like the amp that I know and love. With all the mental gymnastics and caveats associated when you are using a modeler.

 

[EOengineer]

So do you think the average user cares about accuracy then?

Yes, but to varying degrees. What we're really talking about are thresholds and semantic BS. 18 year old eoengineer cared about accuracy but didn't have the knowledge or experience to know how a real Superlead or Mesa Mark IIC+ sounded or felt to play. Fast forward 25 years and I still care, but now that I own a number of those amps and have the tools to compare them, I can make my own concrete evaluations and decide what I think may or may not be accurate.

Using big screen OLEDs as an example, your average consumer may not be able to identify whether their TV's color scale is off by a couple degrees, but if their market research shows a poor color accuracy rating everywhere they go looking to make an informed decision, well...they are likely going to start looking at the competition.

Trying to bring this back around to Stadium as a hypothetical, its probably accurate enough for many people, perhaps the average guitarist even. But if in a year there is a significant pool of folks drawing attention to perceived accuracy issues through comparison videos and the like, average consumers are going to eventually notice and it may effect purchasing decisions.

 

[Digital Igloo]

Any news or hints about what is coming in 1.4 and when that might be? I know 1.2 was pre announced to be about Showcase, 1.3 about Proxy, but I don't remember anything about 1.4?

1.3.2 is first. Additional bug fixes.

I agree its good enough but why stop there and accept it.

We're absolutely going to keep improving Proxy, both sonically and usability-wise. The one thing we won't do, however, is use null tests to determine if we're closer or not. In fact, the way things work in Proxyland (or really, anything with a combination of frequency and time domain-based processes), a better and more accurate-sounding Proxy clone in the future could very well perform worse in null tests than a clone made today.

 

[Sascha Franck]

I believe that Kemper has this feature

Yes. But it's only working for one single sound. So you can't, say, have 2 different profiles with their parameters locked.

 

[Chocol8]

Is it an accuracy issue though? My thought is that it is more about the amp-in-the-room experience vs a mic'ed version of the guitar tone (your suggestion about the power amps and FRFR units).

Still, most people will never sit in a room and A/B a digital amp capture or modeler to the real amp. Only a very very tiny percentage will.

I do believe for those that DO compare with their own ears, the amp-in-the-room difference is the most pronounced (vs the FOH sound after micing the cab).

It is definitely (partially) an accuracy issue. The way digital handles pick attack/transients and dynamics has improved quite significantly in the last 5 years vs prior gen. That has a lot to do with feel.

The issue with FRFR and power amps is even if the modeler gets the signal right, the output section has to be able to amplify it. Many can't.

The amp in the room problem is a totally separate issue related to speaker modeling accuracy and the difficulty in modeling a speaker/cab without the mic and room coloration sneaking in. This is a different "accuracy" issue.

 

[Chocol8]

If I am using a modeler; I pick an amp model I know and love and, big shocker; expect it to sound like the amp that I know and love. With all the mental gymnastics and caveats associated when you are using a modeler.

This seems so logical, yet people will argue endlessly that its unreasonable.

 

[Chocol8]

If you mean the problem is simply volume in the room then I agree. I think most of the issue is people are used to loud tube amps. Playing at comparative whisper levels doesn't really lend well to "feel".

Yeah no. Much more than volume. If you take a modeler outside the bedroom and play it at the same volume you would a 50/100 watt tube amp, you will really notice the weakness in your playback chain.

 

[Richard_G]

It’s the continuous effort to make modeling more like the amps the modeling technology is meant to replicate – ie. improving accuracy – that has led the technology to the great place it is today.

 

[EOengineer]

It’s the continuous effort to make modeling more like the amps the modeling technology is meant to replicatie – ie. improving accuracy – that has led the technology to the great place it is today.

Yeah but can it do this?

 

[OneEng]

It is definitely (partially) an accuracy issue. The way digital handles pick attack/transients and dynamics has improved quite significantly in the last 5 years vs prior gen. That has a lot to do with feel.

The issue with FRFR and power amps is even if the modeler gets the signal right, the output section has to be able to amplify it. Many can't.

The amp in the room problem is a totally separate issue related to speaker modeling accuracy and the difficulty in modeling a speaker/cab without the mic and room coloration sneaking in. This is a different "accuracy" issue.

If you gig and use a decent sized PA, you mic your guitar cab on a tube amp setup. If we are discussing the accuracy of what the audience hears, then I would argue that modelers and capture devices have already reached past the point of "accurate enough".

If you are playing in your basement in the room with your 4x12 cab and tube amp, or on stage using your amp for monitoring, then it is a much different experience between using a tube amp and cab vs. a modeler/capture with DI and IEM's or even a FRFR mic'ed with a wedge monitor.

Kemper has attempted to reclaim this feeling with their Kemper Kabinet, but honestly, it still falls short of the real thing to my ears.

I think it is really a matter of perspective. If this "accuracy" importance discussion about what the audience hears or is it about what the guitar player hears. I can tell you honestly and from the heart that in any band I am a part of, it will always be about what the audience hears. YMMV.

 

[dbfretz]

Tonally what’s the consensus right now, Stadium or QC? Seems very much QC on this forum.

 

[EOengineer]

Tonally what’s the consensus right now, Stadium or QC? Seems very much QC on this forum.

Seems fairly unanimous that QC V2 is beating proxy V1. Amps I think are a bit more in the eye of the beholder. Full disclosure I don’t own a QC tho.

 

[Karl Houseknecht]

If you take a modeler outside the bedroom and play it at the same volume you would a 50/100 watt tube amp, you will really notice the weakness in your playback chain.

I do, and that has not been my experience.

 

[molul]

Yeah no. Much more than volume. If you take a modeler outside the bedroom and play it at the same volume you would a 50/100 watt tube amp, you will really notice the weakness in your playback chain.

I haven't had both a real amp and a modeler+FR at the same time in the rehearsal place (had to sell the amp to buy stuff) but I certainly haven't missed a thing since I switched. Neither had any of my bandmates. Maybe a thorough test with both playback systems would have risen certain differences, but sticking to the basics, it felt just as good.