Line 6 Helix Stadium Talk

[Chocol8]

I'm no amp designer, it just seems odd to me. It's one wire that you could send anywhere. There has to be at least one amp out there that sends the NFB back into another part of the circuit. Surely?!

There are plenty of amps with NFB in the preamp. They take the output of a gain stage and feed it back to the input of that stage inverted.

To do that with the power tubes in a push pull amp would require splitting the NFB signal and inverting it for one tube. It makes way more sense to feed it back before the PI. But...it needs to come after any loops, tone stacks and other tone shaping in the preamp, and preferably after any volume controls. The only place that makes sense is at the PI input.

 

[Richard_G]

Perhaps Kevin convinced the brass by pointing out that choosing this knob to be the one to expose to the end user could be marketed as something rather unique—something not readily available in other sims or real amps.

I guess the best thing would be not to listen to Kevin in this instance. What a knob…

 

[Orvillain]

it needs to come after any loops, tone stacks and other tone shaping in the preamp, and preferably after any volume controls.

Why?

 

[EOengineer]

Well the real amps convo is just a side quest.

The real question is, why have a prePost-Z control in Stadium at all? All I can think is, one of the DSP engineers said "we don't want to pull a Fractal and unlock all of the controls in the UI, but maybe we can invent an original control that gives people some of the customisation they are used to on other platforms" and there you have it.

You can be sure as shit that under the hood, their amp models have all the same kinds of controls that Fractal does; hell, even Fractal probably have a lot more that they're not showing too.

Likewise with the hype control. Someone went "hey, we noticed this other platform consistently gives their amps more gain than the real thing, and a smiley EQ curve.... let's make a knob for that" ....

It is where the distinction between accuracy and product design becomes a thing.

This is more or less my beef with pre/post, hum, ripple, etc. It smacks of inconsistent design decisions. Let’s not expose deep parameters because it’s a wormhole, but oh wait here are a half dozen extra parameters that are difficult to explain, impossible to reason about, and don’t map to any real use case that would require them.

Guess how many times I’ve been in a session where I’m like THAT RIPPLE AINT RIGHT!

But a fucking bright cap switch is just unfathomable. God dammit. I’m getting salty again.

We need to talk about Kevin....

 

[Orvillain]

This is more or less my beef with pre/post, hum, ripple, etc. It smacks of inconsistent design decisions. Let’s not expose deep parameters because it’s a wormhole, but oh wait here are a half dozen extra parameters that are difficult to explain, impossible to reason about, and don’t map to any real use case that would require them.

Guess how many times I’ve been in a session where I’m like THAT RIPPLE AINT RIGHT!

But a fucking bright cap switch is just unfathomable. God dammit. I’m getting salty again.

Well for me.... if the modelling is top notch, then you don't need any of that shit. You just need 100 amps or so, with their real world counterpart controls exposed.

Even Fractal kinda does my head in with some of their choices in this respect.

I do think NeuralDSP are overall offering the best amp experience - not necessarily the sounds, but the workflow.

 

[Chocol8]

Why?

Because it will cancel out what they do.

 

[RiffDuck]

I do think NeuralDSP are overall offering the best amp experience - not necessarily the sounds, but the workflow.

I've always like the way it's been put that Axe FX is like a PC and the QC is a MacBook lol

 

[laxu]

I've always like the way it's been put that Axe FX is like a PC and the QC is a MacBook lol

Looking at how shitty Apple's current software has got...that's not the compliment you think it is.

 

[Orvillain]

Because it will cancel out what they do.

Gotcha.

 

[EOengineer]

Well for me.... if the modelling is top notch, then you don't need any of that shit. You just need 100 amps or so, with their real world counterpart controls exposed.

Even Fractal kinda does my head in with some of their choices in this respect.

I do think NeuralDSP are overall offering the best amp experience - not necessarily the sounds, but the workflow.

It’s a sliding scale, I suppose. I love getting into the shit but the majority of those extra fractal params are not doing the heavy lifting. Some folks live by those extra controls.

I don’t blame L6 for not wanting to open that door, but they kinda did and then made weird choices.

If we’re gonna do it, these combined solve a lot of problems:

1. Input bright cap value
2. Negative feedback
3. Depth
4. Sag
5. Bias

Or I could see some interesting abstractions that combine the effect of these controls - maybe new amp, old amp, etc.

 

[RiffDuck]

Looking at how shitty Apple's current software has got...that's not the compliment you think it is.

Sounds like you're already overthinking the analogy

 

[Orvillain]

It’s a sliding scale, I suppose. I love getting into the shit but the majority of those extra fractal params are not doing the heavy lifting. Some folks live by those extra controls.

I don’t blame L6 for not wanting to open that door, but they kinda did and then made weird choices.

If we’re gonna do it, these combined solve a lot of problems:

1. Input bright cap value
2. Negative feedback
3. Depth
4. Sag
5. Bias

Or I could see some interesting abstractions that combine the effect of these controls - maybe new amp, old amp, etc.

I definitely see the value, and you're right it is a sliding scale. I just notice for myself, I'm my most creative when I plug a few pedals into the front of a valve amp , eschew the FX loop, dial in the amp loud as fuck, and go about my day.

When I start getting very analytical and in the weeds, I end up not writing any music.

 

[laxu]

Having a look now. I'm on the JUMPED channel and the normal/bright drive are both affecting the gain, is that weird? There's only one knob on the amp so i'm not sure why they're both doing things. Master volume I assume is "Volume" on the amp and level is just line level.

View attachment 59146

Normal Drive = Normal channel volume.
Bright Drive = Treble channel volume.
Master = master volume, which should be on 10 if you want it to behave like the real Plexi. It's a convenience if you want to make it a Plexi with a master volume.
Level = output volume.


When jumpered, you mix the two channels together using the normal and bright drive knobs. Functionally this is just like the gain knob on most amps, but without a master volume it controls volume and then the amount of distortion as the preamp starts overdriving the poweramp.

I don't mind the graphics or that they are simply a picture. I think they add a bit of flair. They are mostly there for the Focus function to have a background, and to be able to see what model you are using at a glance.

An issue that still exists on the Stadium is the lack of any grouping for controls. Here's a simple recolour to separate normal vs advanced controls. I think that would make it much easier to separate what is part of the amp and what's advanced, mostly unnecessary stuff.

 

[MirrorProfiles]

It’s a sliding scale, I suppose. I love getting into the shit but the majority of those extra fractal params are not doing the heavy lifting. Some folks live by those extra controls.

I don’t blame L6 for not wanting to open that door, but they kinda did and then made weird choices.

If we’re gonna do it, these combined solve a lot of problems:

1. Input bright cap value
2. Negative feedback
3. Depth
4. Sag
5. Bias

Or I could see some interesting abstractions that combine the effect of these controls - maybe new amp, old amp, etc.

This is all I need, and wouldn’t need to be a sliding range of settings - even just 2 or 3 options would scratch all my itches. Maybe delectable SIC’s too

 

[EOengineer]

I definitely see the value, and you're right it is a sliding scale. I just notice for myself, I'm my most creative when I plug a few pedals into the front of a valve amp , eschew the FX loop, dial in the amp loud as fuck, and go about my day.

When I start getting very analytical and in the weeds, I end up not writing any music.

Strong agree. I was migrating away from modeling for a couple years for similar reasons. I want to play and write songs. That’s the part I like.

I am finding myself setting and forgetting on Agoura way more than on any other platform I’m using outside maybe some of my own Tonex caps.

 

[[Nathan]]

Normal Drive = Normal channel volume.
Bright Drive = Treble channel volume.
Master = master volume, which should be on 10 if you want it to behave like the real Plexi. It's a convenience if you want to make it a Plexi with a master volume.
Level = output volume.


When jumpered, you mix the two channels together using the normal and bright drive knobs. Functionally this is just like the gain knob on most amps, but without a master volume it controls volume and then the amount of distortion as the preamp starts overdriving the poweramp.

I don't mind the graphics or that they are simply a picture. I think they add a bit of flair. They are mostly there for the Focus function to have a background, and to be able to see what model you are using at a glance.

An issue that still exists on the Stadium is the lack of any grouping for controls. Here's a simple recolour to separate normal vs advanced controls. I think that would make it much easier to separate what is part of the amp and what's advanced, mostly unnecessary stuff.

View attachment 59153

A simple colour grouping like that would be a great update

 

[EOengineer]

QC is a MacBook lol

More like a counterfeit iPad with one of those shitty magnetic keyboards attached.

 

[RiffDuck]

More like a counterfeit iPad with one of those shitty magnetic keyboards attached.

Might be the insomnia but I'm dying laughing at this comparison lol. I'm new to this forum but I take it you guys aren't fans of NDSP here?

 

[RiffDuck]

Strong agree. I was migrating away from modeling for a couple years for similar reasons. I want to play and write songs. That’s the part I like.

I am finding myself setting and forgetting on Agoura way more than on any other platform I’m using outside maybe some of my own Tonex caps.

This was my experience with the HX Stomp! I think Line 6 products are very musical and easy to get lost in pretty quickly.

 

[EOengineer]

Might be the insomnia but I'm dying laughing at this comparison lol. I'm new to this forum but I take it you guys aren't fans of NDSP here?

I have ethical problems with how they’ve treated their customers. They do seem to be making an effort now so I’m whatever about it. They are a legit player in the space.

We seem to kind of simultaneously love and flog our modeling companies here. Everyone gets hit eventually.