Line 6 Helix Stadium Talk

[MirrorProfiles]

Here's what I would say:

OG Helix does not sound close to your Jet City at all to me. I've gone over and over them back and forth, and OG Helix is as far away in the other direction from the real amp as Agoura is. Agoura is brighter, a bit more cutting, but there's also a low frequency fuzz component that your Jet City doesn't have. OG Helix is darker, with softer transients than both Agoura and the real amp, and it has a fuzz component too, but almost like the amp is being boosted with a fuzz; whereas in Agoura it sounds like the fuzz is coming from the poweramp.

But I honestly don't think this is a meaningful comparison. Comparing these models to a Jet City amp - no matter how much it is modified to be closer to a true SLO100 - is just fraught with too many circuitry differences.

I’ve used enough models of SLO’s to know where they tend to sit. Helix was not perfect, but it was good and only needed some refinements to close the gap. Opinion here, but I think the JCA SLO sounds as close to the emulations as any two Soldano’s would. Hell, it’s closer in circuit to an original SLO than a BAD reissue anyway. I’m willing to cast a wide net for accuracy and pot tolerances etc.

We can look at this another way - rather than me demonstrating that the SLO isn’t accurate, why doesn’t someone show that it is? All the pushback I’ve received just circles back to “it feels more amp like, I like the tone more, it’s easier to dial in”. All positive attributes but nothing that does anything to prove accuracy.

 

[Orvillain]

“it feels more amp like, I like the tone more, it’s easier to dial in”

I've certainly said nothing of the sort. I've not even said that I think Agoura is more accurate. In fact I believe I just explicitly said that they're both not accurate to your amp clip.

But I Just do not think the comparison methodology is particularly useful, nor valid.

My position is - we don't know enough about Agoura and how it works under the hood, and we don't know enough about how Line 6 develops their amp models and tests them, in order to really judge. It sucks, but it is what it is.

 

[Orvillain]

As an aside, I should've bloody bought one of those HDM's when I had the chance. I did have the JCA100 for a bit, but I hated how the distortion channel bled over into the clean channel. Big boogers.

 

[MirrorProfiles]

My position is - we don't know enough about Agoura and how it works under the hood, and we don't know enough about how Line 6 develops their amp models and tests them, in order to really judge. It sucks, but it is what it is.

Total agreement here. All I’d add is - all we can do is judge the results we get from using them. We don’t really need to know what goes into the sausage if things taste the way we expect.

The end result deviates a lot from my expectations (both here and in other comparisons), both from what I’m used to from Line 6 and also based on what other top models are doing and where the general consensus is. It’s interesting because it’s not what I expected at all.

 

[Orvillain]

Back when I had two VH100R's sat next to each other, one with EL34's and one with 6L6's, I didn't really expect them to sound that different. But the difference was huge. It wasn't subtle. The 6L6 one sounded more metal out of the box, and the EL34 one sounded more rock out of the box. The mids characteristics both in terms of tonal balance but also distortion character, where completely different.

It was quite an eye opener. And thus far, I'm not hearing anything in the SLO that couldn't be explained by such a physical hardware difference.

Because I know at least a little bit about the DSP behind this, I can say some things for certain. If you oversmooth the nonlinear solver, you get high frequency rolloff. If you get a filter coefficient wrong, you can filter frequencies you didn't mean to. If you use a median filter to average out data, you can blur transient response.

So when I hear a particular characteristic, like a subdued high frequency region, I cannot help but wonder if one of these types of things are at play. That's just how I think about it.

The end result for me - taking all analysis out of it - isn't much more complicated than turn up gain, turn up volume, cut mids, cut bass, boost treble and presence.... does it do what I expect it to do based on what my real amps do? If it doesn't, something is broken.

Those Laney VH100R's ... if you boost the presence on them full whack, the amp will oscillate like a bastard!!

 

[Chocol8]

but they also shouldn't be that far apart.

That is not a safe assumption if they were physically different amps.

 

[MirrorProfiles]

That is not a safe assumption if they were physically different amps.

Of course, it's assuming that Line 6 have a single golden reference SLO that all their models derive from. There's a chance they have more than one amp, including one that has a unique circuit/mods. If the other models didnt deviate much from their older models, then I think it would suggest maybe it's a different amp. But the difference between Legacy and Agoura doesn't just align to this one amp.

Either way, it's too hard to say one way or another as to what's causing the difference. All we know is there is a difference.

 

[EOengineer]

Can’t wait for all the fun debate we’re going to have when an Agoura Recto eventually shows up in the wild. I better start limbering up.

We can look at this another way - rather than me demonstrating that the SLO isn’t accurate, why doesn’t someone show that it is? All the pushback I’ve received just circles back to “it feels more amp like, I like the tone more, it’s easier to dial in”. All positive attributes but nothing that does anything to prove accuracy.

Wouldn’t hold my breath. We have a bunch of Mesas and Marshalls floating around here between us reamp guys, but I’m not aware of anyone here owning an SLO and Stadium, let alone the same version of the amp L6 uses, whatever that may be.

L6 used to divulge specifics about there reference amps and that seems a bit more under lock and key now.

 

[contrario]

It's very concerning that Line 6 hasn't shared a statement about this yet because this is what keeps me from buying a Stadium.

Every comparison between the real amp, HX and Augora sounds very different and HX models seem to be more accurate in most of the comparisons such as 5153.

I agree with Ed on this. If they've modeled the same amp, the difference shouldn't be that dramatic. Augora should sound and feel better but not too different.

 

[dean701]

if it's the same amp, wouldn't it be 10 years or so later. tube life? caps? just throwing that out there

The only way to know would be if L6 is kind enough to share the details
@Digital Igloo

 

[GTR37]

It's very concerning that Line 6 hasn't shared a statement about this yet because this is what keeps me from buying a Stadium.

Every comparison between the real amp, HX and Augora sounds very different and HX models seem to be more accurate in most of the comparisons such as 5153.

I agree with Ed on this. If they've modeled the same amp, the difference shouldn't be that dramatic. Augora should sound and feel better but not too different.

Yes they have been pretty quiet on the Forums and FB
Maybe working on a bunch or fixes for the 1.3 update coming in March

 

[Mooselake]

It's very concerning that Line 6 hasn't shared a statement about this yet because this is what keeps me from buying a Stadium.

Every comparison between the real amp, HX and Augora sounds very different and HX models seem to be more accurate in most of the comparisons such as 5153.

I agree with Ed on this. If they've modeled the same amp, the difference shouldn't be that dramatic. Augora should sound and feel better but not too different.

It's not much of a surprise to me, and not a concern either.

Having dealt with innumerable software developers and items in my former life, it's very common for radio silence to ensue when a problem is identified that lasts until the solution is ready to go, or at least close. Line 6 mentioned a little while back that the right people are looking at it. It's possible we'll learn more around the time 1.3 is released, but I'm not holding my breath. The reason for that is when they launched Stadium they'd laid out a pretty aggressive roadmap for addition of the new major features. It's quite possible they are in a manpower crunch at the moment that will push any changes to Agoura itself until a later release.

I'm one of the lucky ones who really, really likes what he hears from Agoura, so this is not much more than an interesting thing to speculate about while waiting for 1.3, spring, that winning lottery ticket, etc. Once I power up Stadium that stuff doesn't cross my mind. The closest I have to a worry is that in the case they do have something to fix, the result will move in a direction away from what I like about the Agoura stuff. I suppose it could just as easily move into a direction I like even more. I just want to be part of the group and have something to wring my hands over regarding Stadium, ha!

 

[Goontone]

It's very concerning that Line 6 hasn't shared a statement about this yet because this is what keeps me from buying a Stadium.

Every comparison between the real amp, HX and Augora sounds very different and HX models seem to be more accurate in most of the comparisons such as 5153.

I agree with Ed on this. If they've modeled the same amp, the difference shouldn't be that dramatic. Augora should sound and feel better but not too different.

IDK what you're expecting them to say. Comment on someone's opinion? Pull back the curtain and show you the recipe? It's never been their style to do either.

 

[JiveTurkey]

DI right now RE: TGF

 

[dean701]

IDK what you're expecting them to say. Comment on someone's opinion? Pull back the curtain and show you the recipe? It's never been their style to do either.

I was going to say something similar. If you want details like whether the same amps were utilized for modeling then MAYBE they will share. If you are going to attack them saying nothing sounds right, I don't think they are going to re-vamp their whole recipe based on a user forum of select users.

 

[EOengineer]

IDK what you're expecting them to say. Comment on someone's opinion? Pull back the curtain and show you the recipe? It's never been their style to do either.

Nor would any manufacturer in this space. Modeling methodology is their most prized IP.

DI right now RE: TGF

Honestly wouldn’t blame him. We may have turned the corner from inquisitive to just flat out insufferable.

 

[contrario]

IDK what you're expecting them to say. Comment on someone's opinion? Pull back the curtain and show you the recipe? It's never been their style to do either.

Have you listened to the clips shared here before? Especially the 5153 and Mark IIC+ models? It's not my opinion, it's just a fact.


If I remember correctly, Line 6 shared some comparison samples of their models and the real amps they had modeled when the Helix first launched. Doing something similar for Augora could end the suspicion and appeal to their potential customers.

 

[EOengineer]

Have you listened to the clips shared here before? Especially the 5153 and Mark IIC+ models? It's not my opinion, it's just a fact.


If I remember correctly, Line 6 shared some comparison samples of their models and the real amps they had modeled when the Helix first launched. Doing something similar for Augora could end the suspicion and appeal to their potential customers.

The 2C+ clips you’re referencing were mine.

At this time, I believe the extreme difference in tone in that test was partially due to a now resolved bug that was present in the cab/IR/SIC behavior. There were other prosaic contributors as well, such as the GEQ behavior being significantly different in the reissue IIC+ compared to older original Mark series GEQ.

At some point I’ll put together another comparison and I suspect we will find a much closer match now.

 

[mikah912]

Have you listened to the clips shared here before? Especially the 5153 and Mark IIC+ models? It's not my opinion, it's just a fact.


If I remember correctly, Line 6 shared some comparison samples of their models and the real amps they had modeled when the Helix first launched. Doing something similar for Augora could end the suspicion and appeal to their potential customers.

Getting a little presumptious calling one isolated comparison (not done with Line 6's actual source amp) establishing it's "fact" that the modeling is inaccurate, no?

As for Line 6 putting out another in-house comparison between their actual amps and the current-gen modeling, I'd say that would settle about as much for the accuracy of Agoura modeling as the previous comparison did to settle the accuracy of HX modeling....

....which is to say no settlement whatsoever.

 

[dean701]

For those using your own IRs as part of your testing, since the Stadium defaults to using the matching cab SIC, is this causing the difference in sound? Have you tried adding a cab similar to your IR type and muting it, as previously suggested, to see if that makes it closer to your expectations?