Line 6 Helix Stadium Talk

[HotRats]

You would imagine there's a bug or something else wrong they're working on?

To think the team's testing would be this bad, for such amp sims, after all the agora hype, is hard to believe.

Don't know what to think.

Are we upset because the Mark 2C+ set to the same settings on a Mark 3 don’t match because we can’t set it with our eyes?

Nope.

 

[Orvillain]

@EOengineer - can you try dialing Stadium in to sound like the real amp, regardless of settings or "realistic" knob/slider positions ?

 

[Deadpan]

Are we upset because the Mark 2C+ set to the same settings on a Mark 3 don’t match because we can’t set it with our eyes?

I tested the EVH Agora against a mostly brand new matching EVH head.

My Jubilee is a reissue. Not sure if the model is a reissue or original.

 

[MIJLOVER]

On one hand, I really wish we can to the bottom of the discrepancies but on the other, I’m really enjoying how Stadium sounds and responds. The Jubilee and the 2C+ sounds killer to me, but I don’t play metal so …

 

[HomespunEffects]

No. We’re upset because there are several indications that the amp modeling in the Stadium is strange or a bit off.

Got it. Ok, then what am I supposed to listen for?

 

[Mongillo19]

Got it. Ok, then what am I supposed to listen for?

Can you really not hear the difference in the clips that were just posted?

 

[EOengineer]

Got it. Ok, then what am I supposed to listen for?

Maybe start by backreading the thread a bit so you don’t look like such an asshole.

 

[Orvillain]

Maybe start by backreading the thread a bit so you don’t look like such an asshole.

HomeSpunAsshole.

 

[MirrorProfiles]

My Jubilee is a reissue. Not sure if the model is a reissue or original.

Reissue and original runs sound indistinguishable to me. I’ve owned both, original one was serviced by Marshall and all in spec.

Many of us here are long time Helix users and know an approximate range of variables for dialling stuff in. Agoura seems to be more than a bit outside of that “component tolerance” range, especially because the differences with several models are all in the same kind of way (rather than just random).

There are people here who want to help and improve things by going to the trouble of giving examples and posting audio, and there are some who just want to gaslight and tell people everything is fine.

 

[MIJLOVER]

No. We’re upset because there are several indications that the amp modeling in the Stadium is strange or a bit off.

is it mostly in the high gain amps tho? When I compared the Super Reverb, it was pretty clear that OG Helix had mod high end compared to Stadium, and that was especially apparent with the bright switch engaged. But Stadium still sounded and felt best to me. And that was of course with identical settings. I didn’t try to match the sound.

But I never expected them to sound the same at the same setting, cause if they did, why even develop Agoura?

I’m also starting to wonder if these findings are the reason the hot fixes for the usability bugs haven’t materialized. Line 6 probably wants to get on top of this asap.

 

[MirrorProfiles]

But I never expected them to sound the same at the same setting, cause of they did, why even develop Agoura?

They should be somewhat similar though. Imagine you have a watch that tells the time but it can only tell you closest to the nearest minute. An improved, more accurate watch would show the same value for the minutes but just get a closer resolution.

Agoura being more accurate shouldn’t make the previous modelling less accurate. Think of the Fractal updates and how small they typically are - honing in on accuracy shouldn’t give drastically different results unless something is wrong.

 

[sashimi]

is it mostly in the high gain amps tho? When I compared the Super Reverb, it was pretty clear that OG Helix had mod high end compared to Stadium, and that was especially apparent with the bright switch engaged. But Stadium still sounded and felt best to me. And that was of course with identical settings. I didn’t try to match the sound.

But I never expected them to sound the same at the same setting, cause if they did, why even develop Agoura?

I’m also starting to wonder if these findings are the reason the hot fixes for the usability bugs haven’t materialized. Line 6 probably wants to get on top of this asap.

It’s always the high gain amps

If you play a super reverb model just be grateful like I am that we don’t have to worry about this stuff. Personally I don’t give a f about how accurate a cranked mesa sounds because I would never use that sound anyway. But if the amp is going to be modeled it should be done right. I am not dismissing what you guys are saying or gaslighting that everything is fine. I get it that line 6 has some kinks to work out. It’s just a pattern that there’s always something ‘not quite right’ with the high gain amps. Seems to me most modelers can do a cleanish pedal platform kind of amp just fine, it’s when you’re trying to get a lot of amp gain out of a model that puts it to the test.

 

[EOengineer]

But I never expected them to sound the same at the same setting, cause if they did, why even develop Agoura?

I wouldn’t necessarily say the expectation is for the amps to sound the same at the same settings. More or less I think we’re just looking for patterns in the comparisons, and noticing a consistent type of deviation in Agoura that seems novel compared to other platforms and SIMILAR real amps.

The Mark series amp is the whipping boy right now because we happen to have a weirdly high number of Mark series owners here who know those amps well.

They should be somewhat similar though. Imagine you have a watch that tells the time but it can only tell you closest to the nearest minute. An improved, more accurate watch would show the same value for the minutes but just get a closer resolution.

Agoura being more accurate shouldn’t make the previous modelling less accurate. Think of the Fractal updates and how small they typically are - honing in on accuracy shouldn’t give drastically different results unless something is wrong.

I seem to remember Hx amps getting called out for being too bright/brash. I’m not sure if I agreed, but when I started noticing how dark some of the Agoura demo tones were I did wonder whether there was an over correction.

If there’s an issue here, my gut feeling is that this isn’t some flaw deep in Agoura’s DNA, and feels much more like an SIC bug. The dulled top end very much reminds me of V1 Tonex. IK fixed that pretty quickly.

 

[Mongillo19]

The dulled top end very much reminds me of V1 Tonex. IK fixed that pretty quickly

Are you referring them launching V2? Believe it or not it was 3 years from the launch of tone x

 

[MirrorProfiles]

and feels much more like an SIC bug

This would be my first guess too. SIC’s often influence the very low and very high frequencies where I feel Agoura is feeling most flat. I hope it’s an easy fix.

It really does make me wonder how this stuff passes through testing, and how it affects things like factory presets, as well as user presets which could be subject to drastic changes when fixed.

Are you referring them launching V2? Believe it or not it was 3 years from the launch of tone x

ToneX had a couple of bugs on V1 with direct amp models not sounding accurate that got fixed early on.

 

[Richard_G]

If there’s an issue here, my gut feeling is that this isn’t some flaw deep in Agoura’s DNA, and feels much more like an SIC bug.

I wouldn't be too surprised if it turns out to be at least partly connected to a SIC bug.

 

[MIJLOVER]

It’s always the high gain amps

If you play a super reverb model just be grateful like I am that we don’t have to worry about this stuff. Personally I don’t give a f about how accurate a cranked mesa sounds because I would never use that sound anyway. But if the amp is going to be modeled it should be done right. I am not dismissing what you guys are saying or gaslighting that everything is fine. I get it that line 6 has some kinks to work out. It’s just a pattern that there’s always something ‘not quite right’ with the high gain amps. Seems to me most modelers can do a cleanish pedal platform kind of amp just fine, it’s when you’re trying to get a lot of amp gain out of a model that puts it to the test.

I mean I still like the high gain amps for liquid soloing tone stuff. The 2C+ also does a bunch of other tones other than crushing metal sounds.

Today, I finished setting up a 4 snapshot preset based on the Jubilee. I get it right on the cusp of being nastily bright on the crunch tones - perfect for ruining some GNR licks

 

[MIJLOVER]

Think of the Fractal updates and how small they typically are - honing in on accuracy shouldn’t give drastically different results unless something is wrong

But that’s not how Line 6 has described Agoura - it doesn’t seem to be a “evolution” but a from the ground up new modeling engine. In that process it’s probably much more likely to have introduced a bug than if they had opted to refine the existing modeling.

But I’m not hearing / experiencing the Agoura modeling as flat, though. On the contrary, it’s much more dynamic and chewy, and has no weird distorted decays that rendered quite a few models useless to me in Helix.

I hope they fix the SIC or whatever is causing the lack of highend. But selfishly also hoping it won’t change the feel/response of the amp too much

 

[MirrorProfiles]

But that’s not how Line 6 has described Agoura - it doesn’t seem to be a “evolution” but a from the ground up new modeling engine. In that process it’s probably much more likely to have introduced a bug than if they had opted to refine the existing modeling.

I think the analogy I used above about the accuracy of a watch being the best way of thinking of it. If Helix Legacy is 95% accurate, 99% accurate shouldnt sound too different - it’s about honing in. If my old watch was accurate to the minute hand, my more accurate new watch shouldn’t show a totally different time (unless one of them is way off).

I don’t think any potential fixes would remove the pleasing aspects of Agoura.

 

[HomespunEffects]

Can you really not hear the difference in the clips that were just posted?

Yeah, they sound like someone changed the mids control.