Line 6 Helix Stadium Talk

[MirrorProfiles]

Interesting that you have the perspective that HX modeling was accurate and didn't require much deviation from real life amp settings to recreate the same sound and feel, when that was a common complaint of the "old" modeling engine.

The new Agoura modelling seems to be much further away than what the previous gen was. I'm perfectly used to having to adjust for tolerances and different impedance curves and things and it seems to be way beyond that. And IMO there was room for improvement before but this is vastly different.

I've A/Bed against the HX engine both on the Stadium hardware and against the old HX hardware (well, actually against Native going through a Presonus interface. I sold all of my other modeling hardware recently) I think the Agoura Ectsasy, REVV channels, Soldano and 2203 are measurably better sounding and feeling to me. I do prefer the HX 5153 models, for sure.

This kind of preference is a subjective thing. If there are clear differences, that suggests something has gone wrong somewhere - imagine Cliff released a new Fractal update tomorrow and things changed as drastically as these HX vs Agoura differences. It would be a bit confusing if we already know the existing models are very close. The EVH was only modelled recently on Helix so I doubt that anything could have slipped through the net - should the differences not be fairly minor?

Having a preference is fine, and I totally accept that Stadium feels better to play. I'm trying to remove my own tonal preferences from the equation and am focusing more on:

- why is there such a big difference between Agoura and the previous modelling? Either they should both be somewhat close, or one has a problem. Matching the tones and settings closely suggests the old model was pretty good.

- why is it almost effortless to make HX Native sound close to the real amp, while Agoura is almost impossible to get as close? Even if we factor in improved modelling, different tolerance modelling (even though the reference amp is the same), different impedance curves, it's still not possible to make the Agoura model sound like the amp.

 

[JiveTurkey]

JT, I'm curious to see what you think of the OG Archetype/PRS Archon too.

I have really come to a place where I am just an OG 5150, Rectifier and Mark guy. With a splash of JVM and Orange style for stoner stuff on the side. These other amp variants are cool but ultimately I don't find myself craving those sounds? PRS is very much in this category. Their guitar showever? OOOOOOOOOOOOOF

 

[mikah912]

The new Agoura modelling seems to be much further away than what the previous gen was. I'm perfectly used to having to adjust for tolerances and different impedance curves and things and it seems to be way beyond that. And IMO there was room for improvement before but this is vastly different.



This kind of preference is a subjective thing. If there are clear differences, that suggests something has gone wrong somewhere - imagine Cliff released a new Fractal update tomorrow and things changed as drastically as these HX vs Agoura differences. It would be a bit confusing if we already know the existing models are very close. The EVH was only modelled recently on Helix so I doubt that anything could have slipped through the net - should the differences not be fairly minor?

Having a preference is fine, and I totally accept that Stadium feels better to play. I'm trying to remove my own tonal preferences from the equation and am focusing more on:

- why is there such a big difference between Agoura and the previous modelling? Either they should both be somewhat close, or one has a problem. Matching the tones and settings closely suggests the old model was pretty good.

- why is it almost effortless to make HX Native sound close to the real amp, while Agoura is almost impossible to get as close? Even if we factor in improved modelling, different tolerance modelling (even though the reference amp is the same), different impedance curves, it's still not possible to make the Agoura model sound like the amp.

I haven't seen a big disparity anywhere except with the 100W 5153 6L6, tho. And I agree that something sounds off with the Agoura one.

 

[Desertdweller]

I have really come to a place where I am just an OG 5150, Rectifier and Mark guy.

Same. I went through a bunch of amps a few years ago, and it’s clear to me I’m most at home and find my best creativity using Marks, Rectos, and 5150s.

 

[mikah912]

I have really come to a place where I am just an OG 5150, Rectifier and Mark guy. With a splash of JVM and Orange style for stoner stuff on the side. These other amp variants are cool but ultimately I don't find myself craving those sounds? PRS is very much in this category. Their guitar showever? OOOOOOOOOOOOOF

Respect. I've owned a few PRS SEs and played the US models. For whatever reason, they haven't stuck with me full time.

I do like the Archon precisely because it scratches my "idealized Recto" itch, but I can see wanting all of the woof and fizz of the OG. Those are signatures.

 

[EOengineer]

Here is Deadpan's EVH 5150 III 100W:



And here is the Agoura model at eyeballed settings. I wouldn't expect a perfect match, but it should be in the ballpark (where a few nudges and tweaks would get them very close):



Now if we compare with Helix. I used my own IR here as I dont know what Deadpan used on his original clip. I also didnt know what settings he used, so I dialled in by ear. So first we have the real amp:



and here is what I dialled in with Helix Native (settings compared below):



Real amp settings were this (not the cranked presence and treble and what kind of result you'd expect from that):

View attachment 56488

and Helix Native:

View attachment 56489

Maybe I could have dialled them closer still if I knew the original amp settings, but they're surprisingly close.

EQ responses dont really tell the full story but regardless. The flatter the line, the smaller the EQ difference from the original amp. The green line is the difference between real amp and Agoura in the 1st example. Notice the roll off in the top end. The Red line is what I dialled in by ear. Maybe if I'd have dialled the bass knob closer to the real amp's actual settings that would be closer still. The rest of the line is pretty straight.
View attachment 56492

Thanks for throwing this together.

What’s up with all the ultra low frequency energy on the red line below 20hz? That is a stark difference between those first two clips comparing the real amp to agoura though. What are our variables there, because that is the case I think we'd most want to investigate. I could not care less how Agoura compares to Hx or Fractal.

I have really come to a place where I am just an OG 5150, Rectifier and Mark guy. With a splash of JVM and Orange style for stoner stuff on the side. These other amp variants are cool but ultimately I don't find myself craving those sounds? PRS is very much in this category. Their guitar showever? OOOOOOOOOOOOOF

This is where I get into the embarrassment of riches thing with modeling. We pretty much use the same amps minus a Superlead or 800 here and there. I don’t need 250 amps. I just need the 5 amps I use to sound like the 5 amps I use.

It gets even dumber when I realize I already own all those amps.

 

[StarF666]

Just played around a bit with the old and new Bassman models (same cab of course). The Agoura model seems to have more depth and openess but it also seem to have a distinct 5dB EQ bump around 300Hz. I found the OG model to be very close to what I expect from a Bassman EQ wise. I prefer the Agoura model, it's just plain more fun to play. But the EQ feels off. I dunno if it's just what I'm used to but I know the real amp so well. And to be clear, this is just a quick test be ear, no science involved.

 

[JiveTurkey]

I just need the 5 amps I use to sound like the 5 amps I use.

It gets even dumber when I realize I already own all those amps.

 

[JiveTurkey]

Here is Deadpan's EVH 5150 III 100W:



And here is the Agoura model at eyeballed settings. I wouldn't expect a perfect match, but it should be in the ballpark (where a few nudges and tweaks would get them very close):



Now if we compare with Helix. I used my own IR here as I dont know what Deadpan used on his original clip. I also didnt know what settings he used, so I dialled in by ear. So first we have the real amp:



and here is what I dialled in with Helix Native (settings compared below):



Real amp settings were this (not the cranked presence and treble and what kind of result you'd expect from that):

View attachment 56488

and Helix Native:

View attachment 56489

Maybe I could have dialled them closer still if I knew the original amp settings, but they're surprisingly close.

EQ responses dont really tell the full story but regardless. The flatter the line, the smaller the EQ difference from the original amp. The green line is the difference between real amp and Agoura in the 1st example. Notice the roll off in the top end. The Red line is what I dialled in by ear. Maybe if I'd have dialled the bass knob closer to the real amp's actual settings that would be closer still. The rest of the line is pretty straight.
View attachment 56492

This kind of real world accuracy test says a lot as well. Definite differences in sound for sure! How does this issue get responded to? How long does it take to get earmarked by L6 to revisit and get some sort of turnaround? Has anyone logged a ticket or pointed this out in official capacity to L6?

 

[GTR37]

I haven't seen a big disparity anywhere except with the 100W 5153 6L6, tho. And I agree that something sounds off with the Agoura one.

I find that so odd though tbh
Because they have the guy Howard Kaplan who designed the circuit working in the building on payroll

 

[MirrorProfiles]

I haven't seen a big disparity anywhere except with the 100W 5153 6L6, tho. And I agree that something sounds off with the Agoura one.

Sterlacci and Sadites (I know....) have both done videos showing the 2203 sounds noticeably darker at equivalent settings. The Plexi sounds very dark too. Do any Agoura amps sound as bright as older models? It's an easy test to fire up both and match settings (I dont have a Stadium so its harder for me to test the Ecstasy and SLO).



I'd love to say everything seems perfect, but ultimately if something is off, it's better things are looked at and fixed. And if nothing is wrong, there's no harm in double checking. There's definitely enough to make me scratch my head about everything I've heard so far.

 

[GTR37]

Thanks for throwing this together.

What’s up with all the ultra low frequency energy on the red line below 20hz? That is a stak difference between those first two clips comparing the real amp to agoura though. What are our variables there, because that is the case I think we'd most want to investigate. I could not care less how Agoura compares to Hx or Fractal.


This is where I get into the embarrassment of riches thing with modeling. We pretty much use the same amps minus a Superlead or 800 here and there. I don’t need 250 amps. I just need the 5 amps I use to sound like the 5 amps I use.

It gets even dumber when I realize I already own all those amps.

That’s what I am hearing to that I think is maybe making it sound dark or woofy there is a buildup of sub lows

 

[mikah912]

Sterlacci and Sadites (I know....) have both done videos showing the 2203 sounds noticeably darker at equivalent settings. The Plexi sounds very dark too. Do any Agoura amps sound as bright as older models? It's an easy test to fire up both and match settings (I dont have a Stadium so its harder for me to test the Ecstasy and SLO).



I'd love to say everything seems perfect, but ultimately if something is off, it's better things are looked at and fixed. And if nothing is wrong, there's no harm in double checking. There's definitely enough to make me scratch my head about everything I've heard so far.

I'll try to post some clips of HX Native models vs Agoura with the same factory cabs at the same settings in the next couple of days. It's certainly worth looking into.

 

[EOengineer]

I find that so odd though tbh
Because they have the guy Howard Kaplan who designed the circuit working in the building on payroll

I'm reasonably certain Ben even mentioned pulling him in at one point to ask about some of the behavior they were seeing with that amp specifically.

 

[GTR37]

Sterlacci and Sadites (I know....) have both done videos showing the 2203 sounds noticeably darker at equivalent settings. The Plexi sounds very dark too. Do any Agoura amps sound as bright as older models? It's an easy test to fire up both and match settings (I dont have a Stadium so its harder for me to test the Ecstasy and SLO).



I'd love to say everything seems perfect, but ultimately if something is off, it's better things are looked at and fixed. And if nothing is wrong, there's no harm in double checking. There's definitely enough to make me scratch my head about everything I've heard so far.

I think the plexi has no bright cap option that part of the problem

 

[MirrorProfiles]

What’s up with all the ultra low frequency energy on the red line below 20hz? That is a stak difference between those first two clips comparing the real amp to agoura though. What are our variables there, because that is the case I think we'd most want to investigate. I could not care less how Agoura compares to Hx or Fractal.

No idea, but honestly I wouldn't put too much emphasis on that frequency area. When doing graphs like this, areas outside of the amplifiers operating range and getting towards 0Hz can look funny, especially if there is a difference between them. It could just be that one model filters more heavily below 20Hz than another, or just a by-product of EQ matching like this. I used quite heavy smoothing (1/3 octave) on these graphs just to make the curves easier to read.

 

[JiveTurkey]

I think the plexi has no bright cap option that part of the problem

Is it that or is it the Agoura-fication? Or is it both? Kind of an unfortunate coincidence either way for that to be a model that was already back and forth'd on in the James Freeman days.

 

[marshall2553]

I wonder if any of this could be an issue with the SIC that's loaded for certain amps/cabs. It may explain the lack of top end kerrang. I haven't really noticed it on the models I've been using, but I definitely hear it in those 5153 clips.

 

[Desertdweller]

Respect. I've owned a few PRS SEs and played the US models. For whatever reason, they haven't stuck with me full time.

I do like the Archon precisely because it scratches my "idealized Recto" itch, but I can see wanting all of the woof and fizz of the OG. Those are signatures.

What makes a recto interesting across genres is that it hits exactly the right frequencies that fill out a mix and leave room for vocals. The scoop of a recto is exactly where vocals lie in a mix. It’s an amp I’ve used for filling out pop mixes before and adding weight to choruses.

Plus of course it kills for metal when boosted.

 

[MirrorProfiles]

I think the plexi has no bright cap option that part of the problem

That would affect the preamp and the way the gain kicks in, but it wouldn't explain the top end coming out of the poweramp. Some poweramp circuits can roll off some top end, and some presence circuits can make that part of the amp behave a bit differently.

No idea which specific amp Line 6 modelled, but we know they've had some AWESOME super leads in their amp room. I can't imagine they bought a brand new historic rare amp to put in Agoura rather than using one of the existing ones. I'm assuming whichever Super Lead is in Agoura has a HX equivalent model. But maybe Im wrong.