Line 6 Helix Stadium Talk

[Orvillain]

The more and more I use the Stadium, the more I think there is a kind of inherent dark quality to the Agoura modelled amps, that simply is not there with the HX legacy amps. Very strange. I don't know what causes it, but I simply cannot get the same kind of fizz and harsh presence from any of the Agoura amps, that I can get from the Axe FX III and, more importantly, my real amps.

Losing a little bit of my buzz for it if I'm honest. Everything about the workflow and user experience is absolutely top notch. Shits all over everything else from that respect. But I'm increasingly becoming less "sold" on the sounds, and I'm struggling to articulate why exactly, but something is different about the Agoura amps.

You can literally tits the treble and presence controls on most amps, and it doesn't get anywhere near the fizz that my real amps have. The HX amps are actually a bit easier to get that sort of thing.

There are definitely good sounds to be found. But getting anything that has that proper kerrrrannngggg high frequency horrible shit to it .... very elusive, borderline impossible to get.

 

[Karl Houseknecht]

Here's to hoping for a juicy Stadium update tomorrow

Do we have reason to believe today is the day?

 

[Karl Houseknecht]

I simply cannot get the same kind of fizz and harsh presence from any of the Agoura amps, that I can get from the Axe FX III and, more importantly, my real amps.

Cab and mic choice, maybe? I actually have the opposite issue. I find the Fractal models too polite in some cases.

 

[Mongillo19]

Do we have reason to believe today is the day?

People on here were saying it will probably be a Tuesday?

@mikah912 perhaps?

 

[StarF666]

The more and more I use the Stadium, the more I think there is a kind of inherent dark quality to the Agoura modelled amps, that simply is not there with the HX legacy amps. Very strange. I don't know what causes it, but I simply cannot get the same kind of fizz and harsh presence from any of the Agoura amps, that I can get from the Axe FX III and, more importantly, my real amps.

Losing a little bit of my buzz for it if I'm honest. Everything about the workflow and user experience is absolutely top notch. Shits all over everything else from that respect. But I'm increasingly becoming less "sold" on the sounds, and I'm struggling to articulate why exactly, but something is different about the Agoura amps.

You can literally tits the treble and presence controls on most amps, and it doesn't get anywhere near the fizz that my real amps have. The HX amps are actually a bit easier to get that sort of thing.

There are definitely good sounds to be found. But getting anything that has that proper kerrrrannngggg high frequency horrible shit to it .... very elusive, borderline impossible to get.

I get what you mean. When I take one of my OG presets and just replace the amp model with something Agoura, it feels dull or muffled. I then have to counter with different cabs, mics or drives. I use the Tweed Bassman a lot and I have to dial in much more treble and presence than I'd ever use on my actual amp. The OG model tone stack acted much more like my real amp (actually a 5F8 but pretty much the same thing).

 

[MirrorProfiles]

Cab and mic choice, maybe? I actually have the opposite issue. I find the Fractal models too polite in some cases.

It's easy enough to remove the variable of cabs from the equation, and an accurate model should be accurate without having to compensate with different cab settings. With HX's previous gen modelling, you didnt really have to do too much deviation from how you'd dial the real amp. To get Stadium sounding as close, you really have to get your hands dirty.

That really screams to me that something isn't right. I just don't see how you can go from Helix's old modelling (which was very close to the real deal and Fractal et al) to something that sounds wildly different and can barely get close. I also think for whatever reason that Agoura modelling has a "sound" (a la Kemper). I've heard it on basically every example with gain regardless of the amp.

@Deadpan posted clips in this thread that feature Stadium at roughly the same settings as the amp and they're a universe apart. The old model sounds very close at equivalent settings (happy to share audio examples and settings).

I'm really hoping it's a bug or something thats slipped through the net. I've heard this in audio examples since before Stadium was released, and with more examples and A/B's I'm convinced its not user error or my tastes.

 

[mbenigni]

...supreme boner killer fodder.

Album name.

 

[Deadpan]

The more and more I use the Stadium, the more I think there is a kind of inherent dark quality to the Agoura modelled amps, that simply is not there with the HX legacy amps. Very strange. I don't know what causes it, but I simply cannot get the same kind of fizz and harsh presence from any of the Agoura amps, that I can get from the Axe FX III and, more importantly, my real amps.

Losing a little bit of my buzz for it if I'm honest. Everything about the workflow and user experience is absolutely top notch. Shits all over everything else from that respect. But I'm increasingly becoming less "sold" on the sounds, and I'm struggling to articulate why exactly, but something is different about the Agoura amps.

You can literally tits the treble and presence controls on most amps, and it doesn't get anywhere near the fizz that my real amps have. The HX amps are actually a bit easier to get that sort of thing.

There are definitely good sounds to be found. But getting anything that has that propers find kerrrrannngggg high frequency horrible shit to it .... very elusive, borderline impossible to get.

Let's help find the issue. There is something odd happening.

 

[EOengineer]

It seems as though we’re in a bit of a Mexican standoff in Stadiumville. On one hand, L6 has put Agoura through a battery of blind testing where it apparently comes out on top, and I trust them at their word. BUT…we have a growing pool of observational data from I think reasonably trustworthy folks here who do a lot of recording with tube amps and are raising some initial concerns.

I’ve only had ~4h of actual face time with my Stadium hardware and am somewhat reluctant to weigh in because I don’t really trust my perceptions yet.

Where do we go from here? How do we advance the conversation? I don’t think it’s fair to L6 for us to throw accuracy concerns over the fence without something concrete backing that, but I also feel like it might be beneficial if there was some guidance from L6 on how we might validate some of these concerns in a way that is useful to them so that we can either validate or invalidate those concerns together.

I have a 70s SFDR, SFPR, 2204 (clone), 1959, SF Bassman, and a pile of Mesa Mark amps that I could eventually compare and maybe get some clips together around the new year, but those aren’t exact ringers for the modeled amps, so I’m not sure that gets us anywhere.

 

[mbenigni]

I'm in. Stadium XL ordered!

 

[StarF666]

It's easy enough to remove the variable of cabs from the equation, and an accurate model should be accurate without having to compensate with different cab settings. With HX's previous gen modelling, you didnt really have to do too much deviation from how you'd dial the real amp. To get Stadium sounding as close, you really have to get your hands dirty.

That really screams to me that something isn't right. I just don't see how you can go from Helix's old modelling (which was very close to the real deal and Fractal et al) to something that sounds wildly different and can barely get close. I also think for whatever reason that Agoura modelling has a "sound" (a la Kemper). I've heard it on basically every example with gain regardless of the amp.

@Deadpan posted clips in this thread that feature Stadium at roughly the same settings as the amp and they're a universe apart. The old model sounds very close at equivalent settings (happy to share audio examples and settings).

I'm really hoping it's a bug or something thats slipped through the net. I've heard this in audio examples since before Stadium was released, and with more examples and A/B's I'm convinced its not user error or my tastes.

If it isn't, it's a bummer. The thing I loved about OG Helix was, that the models behaved very much like the real amps (and I know a lot of the real amps). I get very cool sounds out of Agoura and the overall feel and the structure of the distortion is better than the old models but the EQ feels off.

 

[mikah912]

Do we have reason to believe today is the day?

Simply my best guess on past Line 6 firmware releases - no inside knowledge whatsoever.

They tend to favor Tuesdays as it gives their support team ample time to address any whopper bugs that somehow slipped through and need a hotfix.

DI has repeatedly stated they think 1.2 will release in the original timeframe of "Fall" which ends this Sunday.

If they miss this week's timeframe, then that bleeds into two consecutive "holiday" weeks, which would suck for everyone involved.

 

[StarF666]

It seems as though we’re in a bit of a Mexican standoff in Stadiumville. On one hand, L6 has put Agoura through a battery of blind testing where it apparently comes out on top, and I trust them at their word. BUT…we have a growing pool of observational data from I think reasonably trustworthy folks here who do a lot of recording with tube amps and are raising some initial concerns.

I’ve only had ~4h of actual face time with my Stadium hardware and am somewhat reluctant to weigh in because I don’t really trust my perceptions yet.

Where do we go from here? How do we advance the conversation? I don’t think it’s fair to L6 for us to throw accuracy concerns over the fence without something concrete backing that, but I also feel like it might be beneficial if there was some guidance from L6 on how we might validate some of these concerns in a way that is useful to them so that we can either validate or invalidate those concerns together.

I have a 70s SFDR, SFPR, 2204 (clone), and a pile of Mesa amps that I could eventually compare and maybe get some clips together around the new year, but those aren’t exact ringers for the modeled amps, so I’m not sure that gets us anywhere.

I ordered an AM4 to compare. I absolutely love the workflow with Stadium, I hope for Floor and Native variants. But if they loose that "close to the original" behavior, I'd be kinda disappointed even if the Agoura models sounded good (which they do).

 

[EOengineer]

I ordered an AM4 to compare. I absolutely love the workflow with Stadium, I hope for Floor and Native variants. But if they loose that "close to the original" behavior, I'd be kinda disappointed even if the Agoura models sounded good (which they do).

The AM4 is fantastic, you'll enjoy it. Mine has been pulling living room headphone duty because we're breaking in a tornado of a puppy and the AM4 is easier to hide away than the Stadium XL. I've probably put 4-5 hours on mine and still haven't substantively made it out of the Plexi/Superlead models.

 

[JiveTurkey]

Trying to comment in any meaningful way on this. I'm not part of the oscilloscope crew; I am merely a high-gain head.

OG Helix had some moments for me but generally never sounded much like the real amps I had with 1:1 settings of any remotely equivalent nature. FAS amps (that I use, at least) all the way. Hands down.

Stadium has had me coming back almost daily playing it. It is an excellent testament to the overall experience itself. I am employing some Modeler Tips And Tricks™ to carve out my sounds but overall loving the pile of amps and fx I am using. Oddly enough; my go-tos are the 1.0 5150 and Cali Rectifier.


Maybe it's the upgraded hardware; maybe it's something else. I do know I found some Agoura stuff I really like but I'll play the 5150 and Cali Recto 10/10 over the EVH or the Revv stuff.

Superbass is killer just because it's a type of amp I never play with but offers such a cool departure that I find myself always going back to it with a pile of lush effects to zone out with.

The stoner/doom stuff continues to pull me in as well. It's such a "limited in real world gear options" genre (as far as the amp end goes) that I've found myself using the Doom amp as well some of the other L6 original stuff. It must be ok because it's based on a mythical 240 watt 8x12 stack vs. the channel of a SS combo amp


I think for me where the rubber will or will not meet the road is going to be how the game of catch-up is played. Where the currently legacy without being called legacy stuff will be as far as getting up to Agoura specs. If it's going to be a couple of years to get that all up to snuff; it'll be tough. Not to be comparey; but you get used to that Cliff Chase Pace

 

[mikah912]

It's easy enough to remove the variable of cabs from the equation, and an accurate model should be accurate without having to compensate with different cab settings. With HX's previous gen modelling, you didnt really have to do too much deviation from how you'd dial the real amp. To get Stadium sounding as close, you really have to get your hands dirty.

That really screams to me that something isn't right. I just don't see how you can go from Helix's old modelling (which was very close to the real deal and Fractal et al) to something that sounds wildly different and can barely get close. I also think for whatever reason that Agoura modelling has a "sound" (a la Kemper). I've heard it on basically every example with gain regardless of the amp.

@Deadpan posted clips in this thread that feature Stadium at roughly the same settings as the amp and they're a universe apart. The old model sounds very close at equivalent settings (happy to share audio examples and settings).

I'm really hoping it's a bug or something thats slipped through the net. I've heard this in audio examples since before Stadium was released, and with more examples and A/B's I'm convinced its not user error or my tastes.

Interesting that you have the perspective that HX modeling was accurate and didn't require much deviation from real life amp settings to recreate the same sound and feel, when that was a common complaint of the "old" modeling engine.

I've A/Bed against the HX engine both on the Stadium hardware and against the old HX hardware (well, actually against Native going through a Presonus interface. I sold all of my other modeling hardware recently) I think the Agoura Ectsasy, REVV channels, Soldano and 2203 are measurably better sounding and feeling to me. I do prefer the HX 5153 models, for sure.

Even though I'm a gainhead at heart, I'll say the lower-to-mid gain stuff on Stadium has really been a joy to discover. The slightly crunchy Fender/Vox sounds just really feel and sound right to me here, and it incentivizes me to play that kinda stuff in a way that the OG Helix didn't (honestly same goes for my FM9 and QUad Cortex too).

There's some kinda magic there, and I can't quite put my finger on it.

 

[Mooselake]

It seems as though we’re in a bit of a Mexican standoff in Stadiumville. On one hand, L6 has put Agoura through a battery of blind testing where it apparently comes out on top, and I trust them at their word. BUT…we have a growing pool of observational data from I think reasonably trustworthy folks here who do a lot of recording with tube amps and are raising some initial concerns.

I’ve only had ~4h of actual face time with my Stadium hardware and am somewhat reluctant to weigh in because I don’t really trust my perceptions yet.

Where do we go from here? How do we advance the conversation? I don’t think it’s fair to L6 for us to throw accuracy concerns over the fence without something concrete backing that, but I also feel like it might be beneficial if there was some guidance from L6 on how we might validate some of these concerns in a way that is useful to them so that we can either validate or invalidate those concerns together.

I have a 70s SFDR, SFPR, 2204 (clone), and a pile of Mesa amps that I could eventually compare and maybe get some clips together around the new year, but those aren’t exact ringers for the modeled amps, so I’m not sure that gets us anywhere.

I recently ponied up for an AM4, which will be my first foray into the Fractalverse. So by the end of the week I'll have that for comparison. That still doesn't give me a direct comparison with actual hardware amps. And TBH I feel a little disloyal dipping a toe into Fractal waters--long and satisfying relationship with Line 6 stuff.

I dunno what to say about the perceived inaccuracies. Specific to fizz, I don't like it so it now being much easier to minimize/control with Agoura is a plus to me that trumps fidelity. But that's just me.

Really, I think it boils down to individual experience. At least that's how I approach it. When it's fun, inspiring, and almost addictive to play, it's good in my book. I get that for some folks whether it is good or not will be judged in comparison to something else, whether it's just like that something else. For good or ill I don't and never will have the background to make quality judgements based on accuracy in replication. It's just a matter of how things go when it's just me, my guitar, and Stadium [or whatever device].

If it's the case of a wart having slipped into 1.1 somehow, it'll get resolved in time. And if something is out of whack in the Agoura process, Line 6 has historically been receptive to correcting errors when they see/are given evidence of it. Since their stated intent is still to make the basic models as warts-and-all accurate as they can, and introduced Hype as a means to efficiently smooth over some of the warts, I don't think they are meaning to take a step towards smoothed-over, artificially polished tones from their models. Hopefully at some point some clips will show up. I'm curious to hear what people are talking about.

 

[mikah912]

Trying to comment in any meaningful way on this. I'm not part of the oscilloscope crew; I am merely a high-gain head.

OG Helix had some moments for me but generally never sounded much like the real amps I had with 1:1 settings of any remotely equivalent nature. FAS amps (that I use, at least) all the way. Hands down.

Stadium has had me coming back almost daily playing it. It is an excellent testament to the overall experience itself. I am employing some Modeler Tips And Tricks™ to carve out my sounds but overall loving the pile of amps and fx I am using. Oddly enough; my go-tos are the 1.0 5150 and Cali Rectifier.


Maybe it's the upgraded hardware; maybe it's something else. I do know I found some Agoura stuff I really like but I'll play the 5150 and Cali Recto 10/10 over the EVH or the Revv stuff.

Superbass is killer just because it's a type of amp I never play with but offers such a cool departure that I find myself always going back to it with a pile of lush effects to zone out with.

The stoner/doom stuff continues to pull me in as well. It's such a "limited in real world gear options" genre (as far as the amp end goes) that I've found myself using the Doom amp as well some of the other L6 original stuff. It must be ok because it's based on a mythical 240 watt 8x12 stack vs. the channel of a SS combo amp


I think for me where the rubber will or will not meet the road is going to be how the game of catch-up is played. Where the currently legacy without being called legacy stuff will be as far as getting up to Agoura specs. If it's going to be a couple of years to get that all up to snuff; it'll be tough. Not to be comparey; but you get used to that Cliff Chase Pace

JT, I'm curious to see what you think of the OG Archetype/PRS Archon too.

 

[mbenigni]

when I was barley a teenager had one of these

I was barley a teenager, as well. Also hops.

 

[MirrorProfiles]

Here is Deadpan's EVH 5150 III 100W:



And here is the Agoura model at eyeballed settings. I wouldn't expect a perfect match, but it should be in the ballpark (where a few nudges and tweaks would get them very close):



Now if we compare with Helix. I used my own IR here as I dont know what Deadpan used on his original clip. I also didnt know what settings he used, so I dialled in by ear. So first we have the real amp:



and here is what I dialled in with Helix Native (settings compared below):



Real amp settings were this (not the cranked presence and treble and what kind of result you'd expect from that):

and Helix Native:

Maybe I could have dialled them closer still if I knew the original amp settings, but they're surprisingly close.

EQ responses dont really tell the full story but regardless. The flatter the line, the smaller the EQ difference from the original amp. The green line is the difference between real amp and Agoura in the 1st example. Notice the roll off in the top end. The Red line is what I dialled in by ear. Maybe if I'd have dialled the bass knob closer to the real amp's actual settings that would be closer still. The rest of the line is pretty straight.