Line 6 Helix Stadium Talk

[Karl Houseknecht]

What's up with all these complaints about the boot up time?


I understand that having the unit up and running in few seconds is a nice to have but complaining if it takes some time?
I don't understand that.

It's pretty long. And with bugs in the current firmware that require a reboot to resolve, 1 minute and 10 seconds is a long time to wait if you're in the middle of a song or set. That's a full 30 seconds more than the longest booting unit out there. If I remember correctly, the Helix took 22 seconds to boot. Startling increase.

 

[HotRats]

jesus christ I went to see TOP....I can't believe people make such a fuss about a supposed 0.8 difference in latency

 

[Karl Houseknecht]

3.1ms of latency.

Is that the real measurement? Why do we care about this?

 

[JiveTurkey]

Leo Gibson seems nice but his latency series of videos is probably one of the most viral of recurring gear discussion abominations.

 

[HotRats]

It's pretty long. And with bugs in the current firmware that require a reboot to resolve, 1 minute and 10 seconds is a long time to wait if you're in the middle of a song or set. That's a full 30 seconds more than the longest booting unit out there.

I understand that to some extent but I don't see it as a big deal, I personally would not bring a buggy modeler to a gig in the first place.

I had to reboot my OG Helix Floor once and I'm still alive. The song got "ruined" anyway even with 20" boot time and nobody really cared, as usual.
A few months ago a patch cable of my pedalboard died during a gig and had to bypass all my in front pedals for the rest of the night.

I mean, shit happens during shows. could be your modeler, a cable, a string, a fuse, whatever is part of the game.

 

[Lysander]

Is that the real measurement? Why do we care about this?

Apparently Leo Gibson put out a latency measurement video where he was very critical of the Stadium on this matter

What's funny is that he just released another video checking the QC's latency after the 3.3.0 update, with similar (or outright worse!) results compared to the HXS, yet his tone seems way more forgiving here.



But yeah, i genuinely don't get why everyone over there is whining about 3ms. That's a ballpark figure for every major modelling device in the market.

 

[GTR37]

Leo Gibson seems nice but his latency series of videos is probably one of the most viral of recurring gear discussion abominations.

He has caused more crap
With latency and null tests than almost any other click bait YouTuber in the last year

 

[JiveTurkey]

He has caused more crap
With latency and null tests than almost any other click bait YouTuber in the last year

I'd love it if he suddenly put on a Wario hat

 

[Lysander]

Leo Gibson seems nice but his latency series of videos is probably one of the most viral of recurring gear discussion abominations.

At least he got his latency measurement methodology mostly right recently.

His accuracy comparisons based on LUFS for nulled signals are consistently flawed, yet everyone takes them as gospel somehow.

 

[JiveTurkey]

In Dawson's case; he uses a device that comparatively gets no further attention regularly. Yeah, I know. They fixed the spelling of 'Tuner' 3 years ago. It's the one thing he "has" on the other devices. I don't think he is actually seriously malicious but he does seem to have a little fixation nonetheless

 

[Mooselake]

Ahh man, TOP™...



I haven't mentioned any names, and yet you know exactly who this is.

You guys tempted me against my better judgement to go look at that thread. Having a Stadium and having played it and, albeit a sign of perhaps too high an opinion of my opinion, have determined that for my needs it's an upgrade more/less across the board, meaning I had no interest in measured latency, so I'd ignored it. It was every bit the tilt at a windmill I expected. I suppose latency might matter for someone whose needs dictate attaching a bunch of stuff via the loops, but I don't think whatever tiny latency reduction some random dude expects based on principle is going to be the difference maker very often. For my own sanity, whenever someone's argument stands on nothing but "in principle", it's not worth pursuing. Any other view on the matter will get brushed off, "But, in principle..." no matter how relevant or sensible it is.

 

[AlbertA]

Is that the real measurement? Why do we care about this?

I only trust my numbers:
https://thegearforum.com/threads/line-6-helix-stadium-talk.10275/page-23#post-432398

Why is it important? As long as it’s not egregiously high I guess not - “Trust but verify”.

It’s just another piece of information - it’s useful to know in the aggregate what the total system latency is - maybe you use a wireless guitar input and maybe your speakers use DSP and maybe you introduce an overdrive pedal in the loop, etc, etc.

 

[bucephalus]

What happens when a Storm Trooper shoots at a Red Shirt?

Well played sir.

 

[laxu]

What happens when a Storm Trooper shoots at a Red Shirt?

That's easy. The Storm Trooper misses, but the Red Shirt dies anyway due to unrelated matters. Like maybe they trip while dodging the Storm Trooper's laser bolt and hit their head.

Later, back on Starship Enterprise:

"Woah, Bones, I'm glad we got off that Death Star with no casualties!"

 

[mbenigni]

The thing I like the least with captures is the workflow. It's like the old "pick IRs from a huge list" for cab sims, only even worse. Once I find a capture I like it's fine, even if you tweak it a bit.
...
But if given the option for both...I'll just work with amp models. When I had the QC, the captures were fun to try out for a bit but I never ended up using them over the amp models.

So far my favorite captures (on any platform) sound slightly better than my favorite models (on any platform) - but that gap is narrowing. Still, the whack-a-mole workflow of searching for captures vs. just dialing in a virtual amp model is such a drag, it has a paradoxical side-effect: once I find a capture I really like, I tend to use it over and over and over again, which arguably (well, partly - see below) defeats the purpose of having gone digital.

At the same time, I find that I have a pretty narrow tonal sweetspot that I keep dialing out of literally any amp... It has made me really question how much I care about amp modeling in the first place when my real amps can all do those few specific things I like.

Yeah, way back when, the whole draw of modeling was the promise of "one amp that can sound like any amp!" That sounded like a pretty good deal for a kid on a budget - especially a kid who didn't know what any of those amps actually sounded like IRL. Over time I've realized that I like what I like, and that I don't really need that much variety. One conventional amp can do the job if it's the right amp. But modeling remains attractive for practical reasons: programmability, FX integration, etc.

 

[mbenigni]

Just like any tool, options expose other trade offs that require consideration.

Ahem.

 

[Boudoir Guitar]

Ahh man, TOP™...



I haven't mentioned any names, and yet you know exactly who this is.

Thankfully, I haven't peaked over there in so long I have NO IDEA who that is.

 

[holoholo]

In Dawson's case; he uses a device that comparatively gets no further attention regularly. Yeah, I know. They fixed the spelling of 'Tuner' 3 years ago. It's the one thing he "has" on the other devices. I don't think he is actually seriously malicious but he does seem to have a little fixation nonetheless

Dawson reeks of insecure reaching to defend his "superior" device. But in reality, anyone with a brain doesn't care.

 

[JiveTurkey]

Dawson reeks of insecure reaching to defend his "superior" device. But in reality, anyone with a brain doesn't care.

His superior device is the Boogie he's always referencing

 

[Digital Igloo]

onetaketwo clearly has multiple accounts he’s using to troll.

Complete clown.

Oh man, you should see the PMs he sent me. I killed him with kindness and he called me a Karen.

The dude who whined about companies pushing back in any way whatsoever. The dude who claimed to need a safe space from "stalking." The dude who threatened to speak to my manager. But I'M a Karen. The irony is... deafening.

Is that the real measurement? Why do we care about this?

Nope:

Plus, the numbers in that video are off.

A/D > D/A latency on Helix Floor/LT/Rack is 1.8 ms. In part because of its third DSP/coprocessor, Stadium is indeed slightly longer at 2.25 ms.

Agoura amps add a tiny bit more latency than HX amps (due to how impedance curves are implemented) but it completely depends on the amp. For example, we're measuring 2.5 ms with the HiWatt and the HiWatt's matching cab. The video doesn't mention which amp is used but FWIU, none push up to 3 ms.

Cabs don't add any latency, nor do user IRs unless empty samples are added at the beginning to ensure they're phase-locked with others in the bundle (which I understand is fairly common?).

One competitive product hits 4 ms with a single drive, amp, and cab (according to their own specs) and no one seems to complain.