Kemper Profiler MK 2

[Chocol8]

April fools joke?

 

[Orvillain]

I just wanna remind you all, I took 4 days off the forum, and the vibe didn't change.

 

[Sascha Franck]

So, ok, accuracy is important when you come up with a thing doing captures. Sure, I perfectly understand that. Science and all that.
But, just hypothetically: What if you profile a precious amp that you just love to bits and the profile is inaccurate but you actually happen to prefer the profile because it suits your taste even better than the OG amp?
Would you still be asking for better accuracy?

 

[2dor]

So, ok, accuracy is important when you come up with a thing doing captures. Sure, I perfectly understand that. Science and all that.
But, just hypothetically: What if you profile a precious amp that you just love to bits and the profile is inaccurate but you actually happen to prefer the profile because it suits your taste even better than the OG amp?
Would you still be asking for better accuracy?

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder - as long as it makes you play more / inspires you, I think there's no issue with that whatsoever. That said, using the same hypothesis, a unit that misfires profiling your favorite amps is surely going to end up with you questioning why the hell you're even bothering with profiling in the first place. I see it as a reliability issue more than anything else really.

 

[ian_dissonance]

So, ok, accuracy is important when you come up with a thing doing captures. Sure, I perfectly understand that. Science and all that.
But, just hypothetically: What if you profile a precious amp that you just love to bits and the profile is inaccurate but you actually happen to prefer the profile because it suits your taste even better than the OG amp?
Would you still be asking for better accuracy?

Yes.

I just wanna remind you all, I took 4 days off the forum, and the vibe didn't change.

Kemper could try giving us something positive to talk about instead.

 

[OneEng]

Are we using null tests with Fractal as well? If not how are we able to compare the quality and accuracy of that modeling?

I get wanting to be objective, but the whole null test thing can be really silly when you're talking about the device holistically.

I agree. Example, how does switch time and spill over get handled in a Null test?

That's not really possible, since we don't have access to the amps being modeled.

.... and yet Fractal and Line 6 sells lots of units every year.

THE WHOLE POINT OF A CAPTURE OR PROFILE DEVICE IS 1:1 ACCURACY AS CLOSE AS POSSIBLE REGARDLESS OF THE USER’S ENJOYMENT OF INACCURATE CAPTURES OR PROFILES.

I disagree. Most people who buy a Kemper (the thread topic) don't profile at all. If they don't profile at all, then accuracy wasn't part of their purchasing decision. So for the majority of people who buy Kemper, "the whole point" is not accuracy since they never profile with it at all.

Now, perhaps for you, the whole point is capture accuracy. I would argue that IF that is the whole point, then you should be using NAM and ONLY NAM. Nothing else makes ANY sense at all. So ..... do you use NAM exclusively? It does have the best Null test by far. What would be the POINT of using anything else?

My own experience is that I DID profile my amps before I sold them, and the profiles were accurate and sounded good to me; however, I have since found other profiles (either free or purchased) that I like the sound of better than my own profiles and I don't use my own profiles anymore. As a result, accuracy isn't important to me either since I no longer profile.

For those who are saying that they do not like the way Kemper sounds, I get that argument even though I have not experienced it myself. If I didn't like the sound I was getting from my Kemper, it would have been history LONG ago. Tone is very important to me.

 

[paisleywookiee]

.... and yet Fractal and Line 6 sells lots of units every year.

I think you’re missing my point, or ignoring it.

 

[Mongillo19]

I think you’re missing my point, or ignoring it.

 

[dws2384]

What if you profile a precious amp that you just love to bits and the profile is inaccurate but you actually happen to prefer the profile because it suits your taste even better than the OG amp?
Would you still be asking for better accuracy?

If I send a photo to my printer and it comes out with the colours being different does it really matter if I find them artistically pleasing?

Sure, it could be interesting the odd time but Id probably not want it to happen often, or Id at least want to know when it would print well or not.

Maybe Id keep the first print and do another one hoping for it to give a proper output. What if each print kept coming out slightly different for no reason? Sometimes it would print perfectly, other times not perfectly but still pleasing results to me, and sometimes bad results. Would you eventually buy a new printer? Or just say it didn't matter because sometimes the inaccurate prints looked cool.

 

[Sascha Franck]

If I send a photo to my printer and it comes out with the colours being different does it really matter if I find them artistically pleasing?

I'd say yes. I'd return it, though.

 

[paisleywookiee]

I'll make it super clear, since it seems to be confusing to some people.

1. If I buy a capture/profiler device, especially for $1500+, it's because I want to profile amps and have it come out exactly like the original is. Kemper doesn't do this well for many amps, particularly Mesas, and particularly at crunch to high gain. ToneX/NAM, however, do pretty well.

2. If I buy a modeler, it's because I want something that gets extremely close, if not imperceptibly the same to an example, while also offering flexibility capture/profile devices simply can't do. For example, the JP-2C, Triple Crown, Mark V, Silver Jubilee, JCM800 and Archon models all sound extremely close on a Fractal to the original thing, when ran through a reactive load with the same IR, or when ran through a cab with an SS amp. However, I can then tweak everything to my heart's content.

My hope with the Kemper MkII is that they'd fix the shit clock radio UI, and improve the profiling ON DEVICE. While the latter might be true with the new unheard firmware (when used with a computer), the UI is still shit.

The commentary of "most touring acts are happy with the Kemper" and "most Kemper owners never profile their own amps" is all conjecture that I simply don't give a fuck about, since every single Kemper owner I've known has at least attempted to profile their own stuff., and I've yet to see a single major band in over two years with Kemper. See? anecdotal evidence is fun!

 

[Deadpan]

If I send a photo to my printer and it comes out with the colours being different does it really matter if I find them artistically pleasing?

Sure, it could be interesting the odd time but Id probably not want it to happen often, or Id at least want to know when it would print well or not.

Maybe Id keep the first print and do another one hoping for it to give a proper output. What if each print kept coming out slightly different for no reason? Sometimes it would print perfectly, other times not perfectly but still pleasing results to me, and sometimes bad results. Would you eventually buy a new printer? Or just say it didn't matter because sometimes the inaccurate prints looked cool.

If you knew what the print outcome looked like and you bought it for that purpose, what would be the issue?

IMO the Kemper is pretty good. Not perfect but damn good and it does things other units can not.

 

[Deadpan]

I'll make it super clear, since it seems to be confusing to some people.

1. If I buy a capture/profiler device, especially for $1500+, it's because I want to profile amps and have it come out exactly like the original is. Kemper doesn't do this well for many amps, particularly Mesas, and particularly at crunch to high gain. ToneX/NAM, however, do pretty well.

2. If I buy a modeler, it's because I want something that gets extremely close, if not imperceptibly the same to an example, while also offering flexibility capture/profile devices simply can't do. For example, the JP-2C, Triple Crown, Mark V, Silver Jubilee, JCM800 and Archon models all sound extremely close on a Fractal to the original thing, when ran through a reactive load with the same IR, or when ran through a cab with an SS amp. However, I can then tweak everything to my heart's content.

My hope with the Kemper MkII is that they'd fix the shit clock radio UI, and improve the profiling ON DEVICE. While the latter might be true with the new unheard firmware (when used with a computer), the UI is still shit.

The commentary of "most touring acts are happy with the Kemper" and "most Kemper owners never profile their own amps" is all conjecture that I simply don't give a fuck about, since every single Kemper owner I've known has at least attempted to profile their own stuff., and I've yet to see a single major band in over two years with Kemper. See? anecdotal evidence is fun!

I will get a Mesa out and test this. Which model do you think is the worst offender?

 

[MirrorProfiles]

But, just hypothetically: What if you profile a precious amp that you just love to bits and the profile is inaccurate but you actually happen to prefer the profile because it suits your taste even better than the OG amp?
Would you still be asking for better accuracy?

Yes. It means you need a better amp

 

[paisleywookiee]

I will get a Mesa out and test this. Which model do you think is the worst offender?

The Mark-based models.

 

[Orvillain]

If I send a photo to my printer and it comes out with the colours being different does it really matter if I find them artistically pleasing?

Sure, it could be interesting the odd time but Id probably not want it to happen often, or Id at least want to know when it would print well or not.

Maybe Id keep the first print and do another one hoping for it to give a proper output. What if each print kept coming out slightly different for no reason? Sometimes it would print perfectly, other times not perfectly but still pleasing results to me, and sometimes bad results. Would you eventually buy a new printer? Or just say it didn't matter because sometimes the inaccurate prints looked cool.

I can't think of a more perfect analogy actually. Based as fuck m8.

 

[ian_dissonance]

I agree. Example, how does switch time and spill over get handled in a Null test?

.... and yet Fractal and Line 6 sells lots of units every year.

I disagree. Most people who buy a Kemper (the thread topic) don't profile at all. If they don't profile at all, then accuracy wasn't part of their purchasing decision. So for the majority of people who buy Kemper, "the whole point" is not accuracy since they never profile with it at all.

Now, perhaps for you, the whole point is capture accuracy. I would argue that IF that is the whole point, then you should be using NAM and ONLY NAM. Nothing else makes ANY sense at all. So ..... do you use NAM exclusively? It does have the best Null test by far. What would be the POINT of using anything else?

My own experience is that I DID profile my amps before I sold them, and the profiles were accurate and sounded good to me; however, I have since found other profiles (either free or purchased) that I like the sound of better than my own profiles and I don't use my own profiles anymore. As a result, accuracy isn't important to me either since I no longer profile.

For those who are saying that they do not like the way Kemper sounds, I get that argument even though I have not experienced it myself. If I didn't like the sound I was getting from my Kemper, it would have been history LONG ago. Tone is very important to me.

Cool, you did it again. You made like two whole paragraphs that don’t have fuck-all to do with what was stated.

….I DiSAgreE…

 

[Dimiguitar]

I disagree. Most people who buy a Kemper (the thread topic) don't profile at all. If they don't profile at all, then accuracy wasn't part of their purchasing decision. So for the majority of people who buy Kemper, "the whole point" is not accuracy since they never profile with it at all.

I think it's quite possible not to profile but still expect to buy/get free profiles that are accurate, and make unit purchasing decisions on that basis. I believe part of Kemper becoming popular was A/B tests, usually through the function of the unit itself, tests where profiles sounded fairly convincing compared to source. This implies a level of accuracy.

And if I remember correctly, CK had also wrote on the forum that if a profile you download sounds a certain way, you can be confident it was intended to sound like that. I'm paraphrasing but can't find the exact comment again. That also implies accuracy, it seems to me.

But I can understand if the claim would be that, after a given level of accuracy and forward, what remains is less crucial for many people compared to the presence of other features.

If NAM required me to push a boulder up a hill 50 times each time I made or even just loaded a capture, I would probably say goodbye to the improved accuracy and pick other units/software. So there's surely other things that matter to me too, certainly.

 

[OneEng]

1. If I buy a capture/profiler device, especially for $1500+, it's because I want to profile amps and have it come out exactly like the original is.

Just so I understand you correctly, you believe that the majority of Kemper owners profile amps and care deeply that the profiles they make don't null as good as NAM. You also believe that no one that buys a Kemper (or other capture device) has any other criteria that might outweigh small differences in capture quality.

I'll agree that if YOU buy a capture/profiler, that is your criteria. I think that you are intentionally ignoring the fact that others don't agree and purchase a Kemper and are elated with the sound quality and features.

It's almost as if you are angry with anyone that can't grasp just how important a Null test is for a guitar rig.

I think it's quite possible not to profile but still expect to buy/get free profiles that are accurate, and make unit purchasing decisions on that basis. I believe part of Kemper becoming popular was A/B tests, usually through the function of the unit itself, tests where profiles sounded fairly convincing compared to source. This implies a level of accuracy.

And if I remember correctly, CK had also wrote on the forum that if a profile you download sounds a certain way, you can be confident it was intended to sound like that. I'm paraphrasing but can't find the exact comment again. That also implies accuracy, it seems to me.

But I can understand if the claim would be that, after a given level of accuracy and forward, what remains is less crucial for many people compared to the presence of other features.

If NAM required me to push a boulder up a hill 50 times each time I made or even just loaded a capture, I would probably say goodbye to the improved accuracy and pick other units/software. So there's surely other things that matter to me too, certainly.

You are absolutely correct that Kemper made a name for themselves with the premise that the device can capture and re-create famous tube amps so accurately that it is indistinguishable from the original amp, and that even the feel of the Kemper would duplicate the feel of the amp profiled so well that you wouldn't be able to tell the difference.

I think that the claim is partially true. I think that Kemper gets pretty close, but that getting "near perfect" to the point where no one can accurately tell the difference takes a bit of doing on a Kemper. It also requires that you actually own the amp. I think I once topped out at 3 tube amps. I have a couple of friends that have as many as 10. MOST people have exactly 1. My point being that without Kemper, I would never have known that I prefer a Friedman over a JCM800 (and the same kind of thing for a few other amps) because I would likely never have purchased a Friedman to find out.

Where Kemper has gotten off in the woods is the persistent assertion that their profiles are as accurate as can be and that there is no sense in getting more accurate ...... which is a particularly hypocritical statement in the face of the MK2 launch. The irony is quite thick.

I think they should have shifted gears and pivoted to their strengths .... but then I don't run product management for Kemper. Instead they decided to double down on accuracy.

I have to admit, I purchased my Kemper based on 2 key pieces of research.

1. The people that owned Kemper had previously owned very nice tube amp rigs and sold them after purchasing Kemper.
2. Video after video showing artist after artist failing to tell the difference between Kemper and the real thing.

That ISN'T why I have kept the Kemper though. The damn thing is built like a brick, sounds great gig after gig, and just plain gets the job done in brilliant style making my job easy on stage (and at home).

I am rooting for them with the new profiling though. It will be interesting on this forum to see how the MK2 discussions go IF the new profiling algorithm meets or exceeds NAM. Of course, I could care less. Unless the Stadium XL punches it out of the .... well .... stadium with respect to live gig use and offers the same sonic stability and reliability as Kemper, I think Kemper will survive for quite some time to come.

It is sad though. They could be doing so much more.

 

[paisleywookiee]

Just so I understand you correctly, you believe that the majority of Kemper owners profile amps and care deeply that the profiles they make don't null as good as NAM. You also believe that no one that buys a Kemper (or other capture device) has any other criteria that might outweigh small differences in capture quality.

I'll agree that if YOU buy a capture/profiler, that is your criteria. I think that you are intentionally ignoring the fact that others don't agree and purchase a Kemper and are elated with the sound quality and features.

It's almost as if you are angry with anyone that can't grasp just how important a Null test is for a guitar rig.

You are absolutely correct that Kemper made a name for themselves with the premise that the device can capture and re-create famous tube amps so accurately that it is indistinguishable from the original amp, and that even the feel of the Kemper would duplicate the feel of the amp profiled so well that you wouldn't be able to tell the difference.

I think that the claim is partially true. I think that Kemper gets pretty close, but that getting "near perfect" to the point where no one can accurately tell the difference takes a bit of doing on a Kemper. It also requires that you actually own the amp. I think I once topped out at 3 tube amps. I have a couple of friends that have as many as 10. MOST people have exactly 1. My point being that without Kemper, I would never have known that I prefer a Friedman over a JCM800 (and the same kind of thing for a few other amps) because I would likely never have purchased a Friedman to find out.

Where Kemper has gotten off in the woods is the persistent assertion that their profiles are as accurate as can be and that there is no sense in getting more accurate ...... which is a particularly hypocritical statement in the face of the MK2 launch. The irony is quite thick.

I think they should have shifted gears and pivoted to their strengths .... but then I don't run product management for Kemper. Instead they decided to double down on accuracy.

I have to admit, I purchased my Kemper based on 2 key pieces of research.

1. The people that owned Kemper had previously owned very nice tube amp rigs and sold them after purchasing Kemper.
2. Video after video showing artist after artist failing to tell the difference between Kemper and the real thing.

That ISN'T why I have kept the Kemper though. The damn thing is built like a brick, sounds great gig after gig, and just plain gets the job done in brilliant style making my job easy on stage (and at home).

I am rooting for them with the new profiling though. It will be interesting on this forum to see how the MK2 discussions go IF the new profiling algorithm meets or exceeds NAM. Of course, I could care less. Unless the Stadium XL punches it out of the .... well .... stadium with respect to live gig use and offers the same sonic stability and reliability as Kemper, I think Kemper will survive for quite some time to come.

It is sad though. They could be doing so much more.

No, actually you’re not understanding me correctly, and furthermore are constructing some weird strawman. Not sure why you’re struggling so much, but it is what it is. You’re attempting to apply your same tired points you’ve made over and over again to everyone else, to what I’ve stated. I also never even mentioned null tests. I am not angry about anything. I also never stated that anyone else should or should not be happy with a purchase they’ve made. I seriously suggest you work on your reading comprehension.