Kemper Profiler MK 2

[guitarsandcoffee]

They didn't change the DSP hardware at all. My guess is that they simply optimized a bit of memory usage and used it for larger samples/buffers/IR's .... thus the "high resolution". You are quite correct though, I would bet there isn't anywhere near enough processing and memory to handle 2 amps in the chain.

While the power may or may not be there for two amps, the physical unit isn't built for controlling it. Just picture for a second how having two amps in a chain would work using the physical UI of the Stage or Head. This is why I don't think they'll do it with MK2.

 

[JiveTurkey]

In theory you shouldn't need multiple captures if you have a solid drive/fuzz pedal modeling. That's one part of the Kemper that falls down for me, outside an 808 style boost everything sounds pretty meh.

I do wonder if you had higher resolution profiles would the stock Kemper drive modeling work? I guess I could spend 15 minutes testing this out using the Player in the loop of another modeler.

I think that would be the biggest stumbling block for them avoiding releasing an effects only unit. They'd probably have to call it good with just a Kemper delay/reverb pedal.

 

[guitarsandcoffee]

Oh, and the Player really needed a proper interface. Even if it sounds killer only being able to control two parameters of two effects and have zero idea what you're using unless it's got a computer is just a big bummer.

Same thoughts here. The Player was such a potential star and they butchered it every way possible.

>> No effects loop, so if you want to use your pedals with it, it's before or after both the Player amp and effects. For example, if you have a delay pedal you love, it'll have to go after reverb in the Player, or you need to go get another Reverb pedal.

>> No display, I've gigged the Player enough to know this is a big issue. You get lost and turned around so easily if you use more than (1) rig. And trying to use the FX knobs is a joke - you have no clue which FX blocks they are actually controlling.

>> (1) XLR main out, (2) TRS monitor outs? I really have no clue why they released a product where the main out was mono and the monitor was stereo. They have made it so that the XLR out can split to stereo now, but it's a cluster**** to do so and requires extra cables and adapters. It's easier to just use the TRS monitor outs for your main. Stupid.

>> LED Tuner with no note names because no display - if you are in standard tuning, maybe you'll be okay. But I stopped trying to use the tuner on the Player and just used my ears and other strings.

>> Wi-Fi and Bluetooth at the same time crashes the unit. So if you want to control the unit via Wi-Fi (since you cannot plug a tablet directly into it via USB) and want to stream some Bluetooth songs to play to, forget it. Kemper acknowledges the problem but doesn't have a fix. They still market it though so that's cool.

There's more issues, but I digress.

 

[Jarick]

100% agree with you. It's really only useful if you live on one amp model or have it hooked up to the computer full time.

I did mess around with the Kemper drives and fuzzes compared to the Fender TMP and I generally prefer the Fender. Even with everything bypassed on the Kemper there's still a bit of a change in tone (a bit more scooped or boosted highs/lows). For just about all the drive models there's a harsher high end than in the Fender modeled ones. It generally just has that Kemper sound of too much midrange in whatever you're using.

Oh I had shot out a bunch of analog drive pedals against the Fender TMP models and the Fender was generally quite good here so I'd roll with whatever the Fender had over the Kemper drives.

 

[Dimiguitar]

In theory you shouldn't need multiple captures if you have a solid drive/fuzz pedal modeling. That's one part of the Kemper that falls down for me, outside an 808 style boost everything sounds pretty meh.

I only use a boss SD1 and a Maxon 808x (the "on steroids" version of the maxon) with my tube amp. Didn't really ever see a need for other drive pedals -- not even when I had multiple amps.

That said, I recently happened to try out several exotic drive pedal captures running in my tonex one in front of that amp. Some of these pedals were pretty badass. Was able to coax out many more tones out of this one tube amp I own.

I'm going by memory now, but I doubt Kemper's drive pedal, even though flexible, could emulate many of these captures well enough. So it would be cool if you could run multiple profiles.

Or they could improve the drives, but I'd still prefer having the ability to run multiple profiles, like quad cortex can do. It doesn't seem like profiles need a lot of processing power anyway.

MKII is just woefully underpowered compared to QC, from my understanding.

 

[OneEng]

Of course - but that's the most baffling part with all of this. They actually *do* come around with a hardware upgrade and it's still not possible to use multiple captures?

The hardware upgrade did not touch the signal processing chip at all. MKII has the exact same signal processing chip (in fact, the same main board AFAIK) as MKI. IMO, there is zero reason to believe MKII is any more capable, from a hardware perspective, than MKI.

Does anyone know if the part they replaced is still in production?
It would make more sense to me if it was phased out and in order to continue producing the Profiler they had to source a replacement part and that led to the opportunity to do a “mkII” version with some improvements.

Or the part is still in production but could be replaced by a different one at the same cost that opened the door to implement the improvements they had.

I find it hard to believe, even if the new firmware/profiling is as they say, that this was Kemper’s idea of a ‘Next Generation’ release.

It is certainly being scrutinized and criticized as that but they didn’t offer it as something that significant.

It would also explain why the hardware had to roll out even when firmware was held up….the choice being, send hardware out now or have no product on shelves until firmware is fully baked

I think it is still available; however, it is likely becoming more expensive than the newer model. Also, since all other Kemper products now use the newer application processor, they likely get better volume discounts by standardizing on a single part (SOC in this case) throughout the product line. It also makes development and validation easier moving forward.

 

[Sascha Franck]

The hardware upgrade did not touch the signal processing chip at all.

I'm absolutely aware of that. What an epic fail.

 

[OneEng]

I'm absolutely aware of that. What an epic fail.

The NXP DSP56K series is depreciated and listed as "not recommended for new designs". There never was a pin compatible replacement that bumped up the processing power.

For comparison, this DSP has ~ 0.4 GFlops compared to Helix ~5 GFlops and Fractal's 10GFlops.

Kemper would need to port to a SHARC (like others use) which would be a major re-write (which they should have started a decade ago but didn't).

 

[Dimiguitar]

The NXP DSP56K series is depreciated and listed as "not recommended for new designs". There never was a pin compatible replacement that bumped up the processing power.

For comparison, this DSP has ~ 0.4 GFlops compared to Helix ~5 GFlops and Fractal's 10GFlops.

Kemper would need to port to a SHARC (like others use) which would be a major re-write (which they should have started a decade ago but didn't).

Could that also be why they don't have some helix stadium-like UI? That it would require substantially more processing power?

 

[Dimiguitar]

I just wonder what the future plans for Kemper are. If they're this stuck with the hardware they have, where is this going? Access virus was abandoned. Will that be where Kemper ends up?

 

[guitarsandcoffee]

I just wonder what the future plans for Kemper are. If they're this stuck with the hardware they have, where is this going? Access virus was abandoned. Will that be where Kemper ends up?

Great question. If I had to guess - get past V2 and ride that for as long as possible. I genuinely don't think they are going to make any physical product or UI changes because it's been begged for and they still haven't.

If I had to make a prediction about the company: they'll slowly fade into a very, very small company until they cannot keep the doors open any longer.

Kemper reminds me of Peavey; a lot.

 

[Jarick]

Could that also be why they don't have some helix stadium-like UI? That it would require substantially more processing power?

Maybe they just don't want to invest in fully designing new hardware. It's possible they ran the numbers and decided they didn't want to try to compete with companies like Yamaha, Fractal, and Neural DSP in the modern high end device world, and would rather play in the shallower end of the pool.

Completely making up numbers, but lets say it costs $2 million to design, manufacture, and release a next gen platform. Lets say their margin on units was $500. They'd have to move 4,000 units just to break even. Flip side, lets say it only costs $200k to update the current hardware platform to a Mk2 device with updated components. Again, same margin...they'd only have to move 400 units to break even.

Again, numbers are made up but it's entirely possible Kemper just didn't want to lay out the investment because they didn't see a viable return or want to take on all that risk.

 

[LP59]

Does anyone know if the part they replaced is still in production?
It would make more sense to me if it was phased out and in order to continue producing the Profiler they had to source a replacement part and that led to the opportunity to do a “mkII” version with some improvements.

Or the part is still in production but could be replaced by a different one at the same cost that opened the door to implement the improvements they had.

I find it hard to believe, even if the new firmware/profiling is as they say, that this was Kemper’s idea of a ‘Next Generation’ release.

It is certainly being scrutinized and criticized as that but they didn’t offer it as something that significant.

It would also explain why the hardware had to roll out even when firmware was held up….the choice being, send hardware out now or have no product on shelves until firmware is fully baked

They almost certainly did the Mk2 update because something was no longer obtainable, but it's hard to say exactly which part was no longer obtainable. Maybe it was a minor component and they took advantage of the opportunity to update the MCU on the head since that's just a drop-in replacement.

It's all very weird since I can't believe they sell many heads these days anyway. I'm sure 99% of their sales are Player/Stage, but the Player wasn't updated and the Mk2 Stage doesn't really differ from the Mk1 in any significant way.

But no, this is not a "next generation" update. Christoph doesn't do "next generation". In 30 years there was never a next gen Virus and it's safe to assume there will never be a next gen Kemper Profiler. It is what it is and anybody looking for something like a Helix Stadium from Kemper will have to look elsewhere.

 

[Jarick]

@LP59 - good point. It is weird they would have redesigned and kept all the SKUs. It would make more sense to strip down to the Stage and Player. But maybe it's not much more to make all the other units, or they want to provide them for continuity for pros.

 

[LP59]

Maybe they just don't want to invest in fully designing new hardware. It's possible they ran the numbers and decided they didn't want to try to compete with companies like Yamaha, Fractal, and Neural DSP in the modern high end device world, and would rather play in the shallower end of the pool.

Completely making up numbers, but lets say it costs $2 million to design, manufacture, and release a next gen platform. Lets say their margin on units was $500. They'd have to move 4,000 units just to break even. Flip side, lets say it only costs $200k to update the current hardware platform to a Mk2 device with updated components. Again, same margin...they'd only have to move 400 units to break even.

Again, numbers are made up but it's entirely possible Kemper just didn't want to lay out the investment because they didn't see a viable return or want to take on all that risk.

That ship sailed 30 years ago. Christoph has the crown jewels of his company, the software, inextricably tied to an old processor that long ago stopped receiving updates. He long ago made the decision to use a design that cannot be migrated to updated hardware. It's hard to say, even with the benefit of hindsight, if that was a good decision, but there's no going back now. Kemper will never have a significant hardware update.

 

[Sascha Franck]

Kemper would need to port to a SHARC (like others use) which would be a major re-write (which they should have started a decade ago but didn't).

Sure. And while I knew a bit about the technical background already, as a user (or potential user), that's completely irrelevant. People want up to date functionality and vendors need to supply that functionality.
So, as I said: An epic fail, regardless of the technical circumstances.

 

[molul]

How old is Christoph? Maybe he only wants to keep Kemper going until his retirement. I worked at a company whose CEO had that mentality.

 

[OneEng]

Could that also be why they don't have some helix stadium-like UI? That it would require substantially more processing power?

Since the DSP handles all the sonic stuff, the interface between the DSP and the application processor (the one that runs the UI) is just to download a rig (or a performance for fast switching between rigs that are likely held in RAM on the DSP).

I was a little surprised that MK2 didn't include a color LCD if not a touch screen as this would be application level changes only (the app runs on Linux). It would have been more work than what they did (which was nearly nothing), but would have had tangible UI benefits.

The limitation would be that the relatively fixed architecture (n effects before, amp / cab, n effects after) would remain since this is a function of the DSP, not the application. The application can change (greatly) how you view and modify things, but not what "things" are there or how the "things" can be "organized".

So they could make the UI have the same look and feel of stadium (but apply the changes the same set of parameters that are already there vs. making a new model in the backend), but they couldn't make the routing flexible like in Fractal.

 

[Sascha Franck]

How old is Christoph? Maybe he only wants to keep Kemper going until his retirement. I worked at a company whose CEO had that mentality.

Dunno. He actually could've retired long time ago already, I'm sure money is not much of an objection in his life anymore.

 

[molul]

My ex-boss just kept going on because the software we developed was his main hobby. He is close to retiring now, so I guess he'll shut down the company soon. According to my ex-jobmates, he knows most of that software and is not willing to transfer knowledge.

I guess Kemper developers wouldn't have a hard time finding another job if curtains went down.