Compared to the Mk1, Mk2 is of course excellent value as it’s the same price and you get more. A nice sloping front, alternative paint, some cut down effects and a quicker boot time. You also get the promise that better sounds will come in Summer and, at this stage, that might be next Summer. So yes, compared to what they offered before it’s great value but only if you:-
(A) Don’t already have a Mk1 as I did - at that point I’d argue the Mk2 is not good value. That was the point I tried to make in my post
(B) You don’t compare it to the rest of the market which has fundamentally changed from the time when the Mk1 release - at that point, the high end was a two horse race between Kemper and Fractal. Kemper owned Europe high end market - I’d argue this is not because it’s significantly better than the fractal of the day (both great products) but because it was available from retailers with returns policies and was cheaper than the dealer only alternative that is off putting to some.
I have Kemper Mk1, Stadium XL and a couple of actual amps. In the past I’ve owned lots of digital gear going back to Zoom 505 days.
I think your ‘captures are good, modelling is not’ statement is maybe not in date vs flagship units from Fractal and Line 6. Your mentioning of liquid profiles is interesting - you do realise that these are simply digital models that work with a profile? There are a limited number of them and so there will be compromises with some amps - if you look at the Grammatico in Helix and Stadium, you’ll see a large number of things that hugely change the character of the amp. The different directions you can go in that thing go way beyond any of the liquid tonestacks.
So if modelling is a good thing for you with liquid tonestacks (and actually all the modelled distortions, overdrive and fuzz within the Kemper) can you see that modelling *everything* might not be such a bad thing? Especially because the companies that do modelling spend all their research time *on modelling*. Kemper’s thing is profiling - their time right now is on mk2 profiles. How much time do they spend getting the modelling stuff 100% right? Maybe better to model everything so it all matches up accurately and plays nice?
It also might interest you to Google ‘how does Kemper profiling work’ - you’ll find lots out there saying that there are basically 7 digital models inside Kemper to approximate all the amps in the world. When you profile, it chooses the closest, adds filters and does an IR of the speaker cab. I don’t know if this is true or not and, honestly, if the results are great it doesn’t matter how they do it - I am just trying to show that the ‘modelling is inferior to captures’ idea is flawed until *every knob and button can be captured*. If the 7 models thing is actually true, isn’t the Kemper simply an modeller that doesn’t allow you to choose the model?
Until they make it possible for every knob and button to be captured and work ‘as the original’ within a profile environment, you are still (with liquid or other systems anyone comes up with) adding a model onto a profile. If the reason for the mk2 delay is that they’ve found a way to do this for every amp on the planet then The mk2 people will understandably be super happy and I will be glad for them. Even if it ends up being the best sounding unit right now, it’s still years behind on the interface and quality of life things I’m enjoying with my Stadium which, despite only being a modelled right now, is outdoing the Kemper.
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Oh I read it all, rest assured that that was the only thing worth taking away. Ciao!If that is your only take away then you should definitely read slower and think about it more
Dimiguitar
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You are like the sinmix of this forum (other than knowing English). Gives me nostalgia.
Karl Houseknecht
Roadie
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LOL. I called this when they made the announcement and didn't specify the year.
Dimiguitar
Roadie
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Which is part of why they don't typically give out dates (like many others), but in this case they probably felt they had to, considering MKII didn't bring shit on the table without profiling 2.0.
Mongillo19
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Jarick
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The current gen is all pretty solid. Fractal, Neural, Helix, Fender, etc. The new Helix Stadium seems a bit smoother sounding than the old one. But any of them give a quality tone without harshness.
Some are easier to dial in the others. Fractal has all the options but can be a lot to deal with. Universal audio pedals are dead simple but not super flexible. Fender is really easy but has flexibility. Helix and NDSP pretty close behind imo.
The one thing I’m curious about with next Kemper modeling is how much it can achieve with the current hardware. Current Kemper modeling did have demonstrated aliasing in the high end. Two ways this can be addressed are with a higher bitrate or with oversampling. Both require scaled up hardware that does not appear to exist with the new mk2 hardware. I think there’s likely some improvements that can be made on the profiling computing side but only so much wiggle room with legacy hardware.
That said it may not be important if they can get around it with high end roll off outside the typical guitar range which again I think is what Kemper did previously.
Dimiguitar
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They don't care about improved aliasing though, at least going by how mods have handled this. They see it as good enough/not a major issue for people.
Jarick
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The mods are (I'm sorry) completely ignorant assholes who are only concerned with gatekeeping and PR. I'm only interested in what Christoph Kemper says about the unit.
synthpenguin
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I don't have an AE86 Trueno GT APEX in this race, but to me the Kemper brand actually has a coolness factor. The toaster just has an iconic look imo (though I liked it better in the green), and I heavily associate it with gear living in pop producers' and jazz musicians' studios and stuff like that. And for a lot of guitarists who work with acts like that, being able to use one is sort of required, even if it's not your preferred choice.
A lot of iconic music gear gets replaced by newer stuff, so it's no surprise to see that happen to Kemper, but as an outsider who at one point wanted a Kemper, or at least saw it as an aspirational thing (the concept of paying $1500 for anything guitar related was pretty alien to me until the recent FM9 lol), it's a shame to see it happen like this.
Even if the new profiling is truly better, it's hard to see why someone new would go for it at this point. Excluding the Stadium since the capture aspect doesn't yet exist, I'd 100% go for the QC right now if I wanted an all-in-one with captures. Tonex if you don't need an all-in-one, and Tonex or NAM (by way of GENOME) if you only need a plugin. The QC is currently the all-around best 1:1 replacement though, I think.
I do feel bad for people tied to the ecosystem who want something better, and I hope they get that, but from the outside it looks like a sinking ship.
Kemper would probably sell a ton if they released a multifx pedal with an FX loop though. Though maybe that market is a bit saturated at this point.
A lot of iconic music gear gets replaced by newer stuff, so it's no surprise to see that happen to Kemper, but as an outsider who at one point wanted a Kemper, or at least saw it as an aspirational thing (the concept of paying $1500 for anything guitar related was pretty alien to me until the recent FM9 lol), it's a shame to see it happen like this.
Even if the new profiling is truly better, it's hard to see why someone new would go for it at this point. Excluding the Stadium since the capture aspect doesn't yet exist, I'd 100% go for the QC right now if I wanted an all-in-one with captures. Tonex if you don't need an all-in-one, and Tonex or NAM (by way of GENOME) if you only need a plugin. The QC is currently the all-around best 1:1 replacement though, I think.
I do feel bad for people tied to the ecosystem who want something better, and I hope they get that, but from the outside it looks like a sinking ship.
Kemper would probably sell a ton if they released a multifx pedal with an FX loop though. Though maybe that market is a bit saturated at this point.
Dimiguitar
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I believe some of the mods have bigger roles at Kemper than just micro managing people's behaviors on the forum though.
And they often definitely talk like it -- so I believe, quite a bit of the time, they know what's up with CK... Meaning it's not just random talk. That's my impression.
BUT ok.. if Kemper improves aliasing performance, I'll eat pineapple pizza. I'm willing to go that far... Unless they somehow unintentionally improve this!
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Enchilada Jones
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Well, you can lead a horses ass to water but you can’t make him think.
Maybe it was the only thing I typed, once isolated from the context, that served your ‘particular’ needs?
Food for thought. Bon appetit.
Dimiguitar
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But I may be wrong about this obviously.
And maybe the mods talk more authoritatively than they should.
ian_dissonance
Shredder
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Maybe try a car analogy. Those usually work well when talking about technology products.
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I bet that made you feel good.
Chocol8
Shredder
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Comparing Kemper to a 1911, is actually spot on. The 1911 was pretty revolutionary when it came out more than 100 years ago, but technology has moved on. A machined metal single action handgun with an external hammer is an expensive, heavy, and impractical sidearm for military and law enforcement and has been outdated for those roles since the 80’s. Remaining popularity is mostly based on history/nostalgia, hobbyists, and competition. What little professional use remains is with highly customized variants, not a classic Colt.
It think Kemper has a similar issue in that their base software technology and the hardware it runs on is dated and cannot be incrementally updated to match new tech. Liquid Profiling is about all they have, but it is a smoke and mirrors gimmick exceeded by modelers, and soon to be leapfrogged in the capture world.
It think Kemper has a similar issue in that their base software technology and the hardware it runs on is dated and cannot be incrementally updated to match new tech. Liquid Profiling is about all they have, but it is a smoke and mirrors gimmick exceeded by modelers, and soon to be leapfrogged in the capture world.
Dimiguitar
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One advantage of profiling 2.0 is that it can generate results in 30 seconds. CK said this, and also that they may increase the time by some small margin.
This can be important to some. It's an advantage -- and probably points to profiling 2.0 being much less computationally demanding than the approach some competitors have taken.
I have had my MK1 since 2013. I have absolutely gotten my money out of it.
MKII is simply MK1 with a faster application processor (that has nothing to do with signal processing). The DSP and the rest of the unit has remained unchanged.
This is not "doing us wrong". It is simply discouraging. The only "harm" is done to Kemper. Now that the quality of sound can be achieved by nearly all other competitors, Kemper's only selling point is that it is less expensive than the competition, but still on-par with the top of the crowd.
I completely agree. Especially for gigging musicians.
True, and considering it has the same internals as MK1, it would be shocking if it did.
This!
I will likely buy a new device next year. It will NOT be an MK2 (although it is likely I will keep my MK1).
Agree. The usability (other than startup time) did not change.
True. Still, I can see a ton of people comparing MK1 to MK2 and sonically coming up with very little difference. I completely agree that Profiling 2.0 will be faster and easier to get good results out of (which they should have done long ago as many have eluded to). It will keep them a good option for gigging musicians due to this, and the price point compared to the new "elite" entries.
namathan_zirwir
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Even if their profiling catches up to Tonex, QCv2 etc (which I’m assuming it will be very similar)…I still don’t like their hardware and their UI workflow. The Player is okay but really dislike the Stage and the toaster designs. Really surprised they didn’t take the opportunity to refresh the design of their hardware. It’s very old and dated. And being the fact their new profiling isn’t out yet and who knows when, they just keep slipping further behind every day..
