Jim Lill: "In-the-room tone doesn't matter" and he's absolutely right

Cirrus said:
Depends on the scene, eh? I've found the presence of a mic in front of my amp to have very little to do with the size of the venue.
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I hear you. But for me, the size and the amp (wattage) and the size of the cabinet/speakers would effect whether I mic’s up at a small venue.
 
yeky83 said:
Then your reply had nothing to do with the question.
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I think I see what's going on. The original question seemed simple but there was a lot going on in it. It had a bit of a flawed premise so I tried to help straighten that out. The question seemed to conflate some details of amp profiles, amp models, and IR's, and it was also asked in a way that assumed a microphone, and therefore some artifact of room reflections, are just an inherent part of all amp models and profiles. I replied by explaining the difference between modelers and profilers, and said that room reflections are not present in amp models because amp models only model the actual amp circuit, and then the conversation moved along to also say that room reflections don't have to be a part of amp profiles either if the profile is made with just an amp and load box routed back into the profiler.

However, looking back at that post, maybe there was some confusion about the terms used. I think "profiles" was used when "IR's" was what was being asked about so my brain went to profiles vs modeling, etc.

@RaceU4her Looking back at the question that started this line of discussion, if what you were asking was if there was a way to tell what kind of space cabs are recorded in when IR's are made, well, that info is usually not included in the IR file itself, but most IR packs available will talk about what kind of space the cabs were recorded in, so that's something.

Many IR's these days do contain room information, but many also do not. IR's aren't just static EQ filters, they also capture what happens over time when you put signal through a cab. So, whether an IR contains room information depends on the length of the IR. The longer the IR, the more room info is captured. If the IR is shorter than the time it takes the signal from the cab to bounce off the studio's nearest wall and return, then the IR will only output the direct signal from the speaker, with no room information included. It takes about 1 ms for sound to travel about 1 foot, so if the cab is 10 feet from the nearest wall, then you can have about a 20ms IR before you get any room reflections in there. Fractal's UltraRes IR's are 170ms, so they contain direct signal as well as enough extra room info to impact the bass response, but not long enough for any more character of the room to come through. Fractal also recently released IRs about 1.33 seconds long that they call "FullRes" IR's, and they sound more like room reverb than anything else.

Hope that helps. :)
 
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GreatGreen said:
Many IR's these days do contain room information, but many also do not. IR's aren't just static EQ filters, they also capture what happens over time when you put signal through a cab. So, whether an IR contains room information depends on the length of the IR. The longer the IR, the more room info is captured. If the IR is shorter than the time it takes the signal from the cab to bounce off the studio's nearest wall and return, then the IR will only output the direct signal from the speaker, with no room information included. It takes about 1 ms for sound to travel about 1 foot, so if the cab is 10 feet from the nearest wall, then you can have about a 20ms IR before you get any room reflections in there. Fractal's UltraRes IR's are 170ms, so they contain direct signal as well as enough extra room info to impact the bass response, but not long enough for any more character of the room to come through. Fractal also recently released IRs about 1.33 seconds long that they call "FullRes" IR's, and they sound more like room reverb than anything else.
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This is way beyond the scope of this thread, but fwiw the vaaaast majority of IRs do contain (truncated) room info. Floor reflection occurs within ~2-4 ms, and IRs are almost never taken in a >20'x20' empty room.
 
eriwebnerr said:
Man I’m kinda jealous. Do you play bigger places typically or just they all have good sound systems? We typically will use the mains just for vocals even if the place is a bit larger. I’m in a reggae 3 piece and classic rock 4 piece. But i guess it really does depend on the venue and what the crowd expects or will tolerate - like thinking bar vs wedding.
I found the challenge with going direct is that it works best when everyone in the band is doing it. But personally I have had great results with detuned cabinets. The sound is huge but the volume os controlled and the dispersion is fantastic. My go to is a 2x10 with an Alnico Gold.
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In Denver most of even the smaller places mic everything up. I think I only played one gig last year where I wasn't mic'ed, that was at a brewery with no stage
 
AI says suck it Jim:


The concept of guitar amp tone "in the room" refers to the sound that is created when the guitar is played through an amplifier and the resulting sound waves are physically perceived in a three-dimensional space. While many guitarists may rely on recording and post-production techniques to achieve the desired tone, the importance of the in-room sound cannot be overstated. This is because the physical space in which the amp is played affects the way the sound is perceived, with factors such as room size, shape, and materials influencing the tone. The nuances of the in-room sound can make a significant difference in the overall tone and character of the guitar, and can help to create a more organic and natural sound. In short, guitar amp tone "in the room" matters because it contributes to the overall tone and feel of the instrument, and helps to create a more authentic and engaging musical experience.
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spawnofthesith said:
AI says suck it Jim:
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Interesting, I interpreted that quote the opposite way!

I don't think what the AI said and Jim's video contradict each other. Jim didn't say the room doesn't impact the tone. Quite the opposite. His main point is that the room impacts the tone coming from the cab so much, and so differently at every point in the room, that trying to account for all of it by dialing your tone so your cab sounds best to you wherever you might happen to be standing is a terrible way to do things, specifically because the room is going to make that sound so drastically different for everyone else in it. He goes on to say that instead, it's much more productive to concentrate on, and dial for, your mic'd tone, because that can be captured and redistributed, either through recording or PA, in a much more stable and uniform way. Dialing an amp so it sounds best through a mic means that everybody will hear something much closer to the best version of it instead of just you.

Of course the room impacts your tone, and of course the room impacts your mic'd tone, so of course its importance cannot be overstated. :D
 
GreatGreen said:
Interesting, I interpreted that quote the opposite way!

I don't think what the AI said and Jim's video contradict each other. Jim didn't say the room doesn't impact the tone. Quite the opposite. His main point is that the room impacts the tone coming from the cab so much, and so differently at every point in the room, that trying to account for all of it by dialing your tone so your cab sounds best to you wherever you might happen to be standing is a terrible way to do things, specifically because the room is going to make that sound so drastically different for everyone else in it. He goes on to say that instead, it's much more productive to concentrate on, and dial for, your mic'd tone, because that can be captured and redistributed, either through recording or PA, in a much more stable and uniform way. Dialing an amp so it sounds best through a mic means that everybody will hear something much closer to the best version of it instead of just you.

Of course the room impacts your tone, and of course the room impacts your mic'd tone, so of course its importance cannot be overstated. :D
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I’m just being silly
 
GreatGreen said:
His main point is that the room impacts the tone coming from the cab so much, and so differently at every point in the room, that trying to account for all of it by dialing your tone so your cab sounds best to you wherever you might happen to be standing is a terrible way to do things, specifically because the room is going to make that sound so drastically different for everyone else in it. He goes on to say that instead, it's much more productive to concentrate on, and dial for, your mic'd tone, because that can be captured and redistributed, either through recording or PA, in a much more stable and uniform way. Dialing an amp so it sounds best through a mic means that everybody will hear something much closer to the best version of it instead of just you.
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This.

So many comments I've seen (not here specifically) have the opinion that the guitarists sound on stage is the most important thing. And that's fine. For you. On stage. But guitar cabs are horribly designed to fill the room. So then the compromise of mic'ing it and doing the best you can comes in to play. But you can sound quite different in different parts of the room.

A well tuned PA and monitor system solved that for me with using an Axe-FX. Sounded exactly the same through the PA and my wedge every show. I knew what the audience was hearing. And although even a good PA isn't perfect, it was at least designed to give you a consistent sound throughout the entire room.

But that was just my happy place. Feeling my pant legs flapping was never my jam. Just the mix.
 
DrewJD82 said:
My head hurts just glancing at these last few pages. :columbo
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Jim's couch:
dave chappelle GIF
 
KHAAAAAAANNNNNNN!!!!!!!! said:
This.

So many comments I've seen (not here specifically) have the opinion that the guitarists sound on stage is the most important thing. And that's fine. For you. On stage. But guitar cabs are horribly designed to fill the room. So then the compromise of mic'ing it and doing the best you can comes in to play. But you can sound quite different in different parts of the room.

A well tuned PA and monitor system solved that for me with using an Axe-FX. Sounded exactly the same through the PA and my wedge every show. I knew what the audience was hearing. And although even a good PA isn't perfect, it was at least designed to give you a consistent sound throughout the entire room.

But that was just my happy place. Feeling my pant legs flapping was never my jam. Just the mix.
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I know that is a crazy concept these days but imagine for a moment that different players like different things and hear things differently.

I never liked the sound of monitors or IEMs so I always ask to keep my guitar off the monitors and I use my cab for monitoring.

So what I do is I dial in a sound I like on stage, then walk to the front of the PA to hear how it's translating into the PA. Then make (usually minor) adjustments until I'm getting a sound I like on stage AND on the FOH. Not only that's totally possible, it's never took me more than a few minutes to get this right.

Also, I don't like the way modelers sit in a live rock mix and would never use them on any of my gigs. But the doesn't detract from your positive experience with them at all. Because again, different players do things differently.
 
Yeah, I don't like how IEMs sound at all, but unfortunately it's a necessary evil for my situation.


I'm also aware that what I'm hearing in my in ears has nothing to do with what the audience is hearing
 
He makes interesting and entertaining videos, but I disagree with the premise.

Yes, every great guitar tone was recorded using a microphone.

But every time you play that recording, you are listening through a speaker. And if you aren't using headphones, you are listening to...

A speaker (amp) in a room.
 
It's a good thing that I've been chasing Amp where I'm at tone all these years, so, this isn't a problem for me.

While I have had my time in studios over the years, and yes, I have my favorite recorded tones, I have understood what went into getting those tones to tape. Multi-tracking, special EQ, multi mics, etc. Trying to get that from one amp is a fool's errand.

I'm a live player, and as such, all of the tones I've chased, were heard in a room, by my own ears, no mics, etc. It's much easier when you hear a friend's amp that you end up liking, and want the tone of that amp, etc.
 
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