It finally happened.

[Tritium3H]

I think I need some more traditional amplification. I’ve played this venue 3 times with two projects and my monitors (EV ZLX12P) won’t carry the room. I’ve never had this problem before, but my guitar just disappears in this room. Last night I had both of them up on poles, and still just lost in the rest of the noise. The other two bands are rocking little solid state combos and guitars were fine. So now I’m looking at cheap guitar and bass combos to anplify the Helix and a DI bass. Any suggestions? Trying to keep it under $1k total for both.

Have you tried making a special setlist on your Helix, for this particular venue, in which your setlist/presets incorporate a ParaEQ to aggressively focus and boost the midrange? For example, a big bump/hump in the 800 - 1250 Hz range.

 

[EOengineer]

I’m not sure what you’re using on the modeling side but thinking it’s safe to assume current gen.

You can buy A LOT of tube combo amp for < $1k on the used market. It’s an easy way to get a tube power amp and speaker in a single portable enclosure. I see DSL40s for $600 all over the place, Mesa Dual Caliber combos too.

Split your presets and feed the effects return on one of those (or a combo of your choice) and rock on.

 

[AFKAEjay(retired)]

Running digital into returns of amps..you may never wanna go back.

If you don’t mind the weight, supercheap used, and sound great using the return:
Bogner alchemist, line6 DT/spidervalve

Affordable and carryable: egnater rebel, Mesa express, Laney irt

50w all tube you can lift with a finger: Blackstar stjames

Solidstate:
Fender frontman/champion series…not too bad at all. Older fender mustangs have decent speakers/poweramps also.

 

[ian_dissonance]

Have you tried making a special setlist on your Helix, for this particular venue, in which your setlist/presets incorporate a ParaEQ to aggressively focus and boost the midrange? For example, a big bump/hump in the 800 - 1250 Hz range.

Yeah, that’s pretty much what I was doing on Saturday, it helps a little, not a lot. At least not with going into harsh/not fun to play territory.

I’m not sure what you’re using on the modeling side but thinking it’s safe to assume current gen.

You can buy A LOT of tube combo amp for < $1k on the used market. It’s an easy way to get a tube power amp and speaker in a single portable enclosure. I see DSL40s for $600 all over the place, Mesa Dual Caliber combos too.

Split your presets and feed the effects return on one of those (or a combo of your choice) and rock on.

I’m trying to get a bass combo and a guitar combo in that $$.

 

[ragingplatypi]

Yeah, that’s pretty much what I was doing on Saturday, it helps a little, not a lot. At least not with going into harsh/not fun to play territory.

I’m trying to get a bass combo and a guitar combo in that $$.

Fender Rumble for the bass? Cheap, loud and light.

 

[ian_dissonance]

Fender Rumble for the bass? Cheap, loud and light.

That’s on my list for bass. One of the bands we played dude had a little 1x12 combo and it was pretty impressive for the size.

 

[Cactusprick]

hands up who clicked the title expecting to see something like a Fractal plugin announcement...

 

[James Freeman]

You're going slightly mad?

 

[TheTrueZoltan!]

[…] expecting to see something like a Fractal plugin announcement...

 

[norminal]

hands up who clicked the title expecting to see something like a Fractal plugin announcement...

I think we’d have a better chance of getting an Amp X announcement or that Neural DSP has completed porting all of their plugins to the QC.

 

[JoeBfstplk]

Honestly I don’t care if it sounds great, nothing sounds great in this type of room, but guitar cabs seems to do that limited bandwidth aggressive mid thing that works in a shitty old wooden room with big ass windows everywhere. My current setup sounds great 99.9% of the time, but a few rooms seems to have like, negative midrange.

Does your current monitoring set-up have any EQ? Adding some mids and subtracting some bass may help in the cases when the room is swallowing your guitar....

 

[ian_dissonance]

Does your current monitoring set-up have any EQ? Adding some mids and subtracting some bass may help in the cases when the room is swallowing your guitar....

That’s what I’m doing now. I’ve tried setting up in different parts of the “stage”, different EQ, different speaker configuration trying to correct each time we’ve played there. The only reason the vocals are audible is that one of the mains (QSC K10s) is mounted to the wall 10’ in the air. The other they put on a pole across the room is basically inaudible once drums start, too.

 

[AutomationBias]

Someone’s gotta buy it.

Guthrie Govan is apparently using them now with his FM9.

 

[pipelineaudio]

YOU shouldn't be trying to send the audio the patrons hear, that is the PA system's job. Its like all these people who bring these Fender botique dinosaur combo 50 watters, aim them at their knees and the audience's head. They have to turn up so crazy loud to hear, since their knees don't have ears, but due to the directionality, one small part of the audience hears nothing but guitar, and way too loud, while the rest of the audience hears no direct guitar, but does definitely hear out of phase mud guitar bleed from the vocal mics, the drum mics, and any other open mic on stage

Just a muddy mess of barf and telling the audience that you care about some of them but hate the rest.

Your amp is for YOU to hear, and to provide the tone the PA will send to the audience. Unless you are playing a small enough room and skinny enough that your amp will reach everyone relatively equally compared to all the other instruments.

Guitars can be bad at this but bass.......holy crap man....read the room

 

[pipelineaudio]

DXR10 or 12. DSR112 if you can find someone willing to sell it used. Those get silly loud and sound great (I have 2).

Yup, if THAT isn't loud enough for monitoring, either someone is deaf, or its a big enough venue that they have their own exceptional PA

 

[ian_dissonance]

YOU shouldn't be trying to send the audio the patrons hear, that is the PA system's job. Its like all these people who bring these Fender botique dinosaur combo 50 watters, aim them at their knees and the audience's head. They have to turn up so crazy loud to hear, since their knees don't have ears, but due to the directionality, one small part of the audience hears nothing but guitar, and way too loud, while the rest of the audience hears no direct guitar, but does definitely hear out of phase mud guitar bleed from the vocal mics, the drum mics, and any other open mic on stage

Just a muddy mess of barf and telling the audience that you care about some of them but hate the rest.

Your amp is for YOU to hear, and to provide the tone the PA will send to the audience. Unless you are playing a small enough room and skinny enough that your amp will reach everyone relatively equally compared to all the other instruments.

Guitars can be bad at this but bass.......holy crap man....read the room

The “PA” is two ancient QSC K10, one screwed to the wall above the door and one on a pole in a corner about chest height and parallel to the drummer. Otherwise I agree with you and venues with an appropriate setup have never been a problem. It’s the punk/DIY dives. We play for like 25-30 minutes tops so I really don’t feel like rolling out my entire rig and trying to run sound all night to split $150 three ways (back into the band fund).

 

[AFKAEjay(retired)]

YOU shouldn't be trying to send the audio the patrons hear, that is the PA system's job.

smaller stage you get a good mix on stage with your backline…and that’s 80% of what the audience gets.
Common, proven method, nothing wrong with that.

 

[OneEng]

smaller stage you get a good mix on stage with your backline…and that’s 80% of what the audience gets.
Common, proven method, nothing wrong with that.

Proven to suck IMO.

Backline amps get all up into the vocal mics, get re-amplified and turn the guitar into mush .... also make it impossible to get the vocals above the guitars .... since there isn't a singer on the planet that can sing louder than a tube amp on stage.

Best to keep the stage as quiet as you can (drum shields help), mic things up, and let the FOH mix the band and let the PA amplify the band.

Yes, I have played with a backline (and ear plugs as well), and have mixed bands that play this way as well. Yes, it CAN sound good, but ONLY if everyone keeps their volume STRICTLY under control. Sadly, this is rarely how it goes.

As far as I am concerned, a smaller stage is the perfect place to have the PA doing the work (and a drummer with vDrums if you can find one). High stage volume kills a bands sound quality ....... every time.

 

[OneEng]

Had some DXR12s before the EVs, like the EVs better. Sound is comparable, feel easier to move. I don’t think volume is the problem in this situation, I think it’s honestly more about the speaker’s crossover and the combination of a bad room and loud drums. We’re a metal-ish band, hitting the shit out of the drums is part of the sound.

Unless you are playing stadiums, you need to get a drum shield and get the stage volume down. Trying to overpower each other's stage volume is the wrong way to go.

Most venues can't handle the sound level needed for a band to mix around a very loud drummer. By the time you get everything to that level, no one can stand to be within 50 feet of the stage.

You can play killer metal without being at unbearably loud levels (except for the bass, kick, and 7 string guitar low end of course ..... which needs to be loud and so punchy it causes heart palpitations near the stage ).

 

[pipelineaudio]

The “PA” is two ancient QSC K10, one screwed to the wall above the door and one on a pole in a corner about chest height and parallel to the drummer. Otherwise I agree with you and venues with an appropriate setup have never been a problem. It’s the punk/DIY dives. We play for like 25-30 minutes tops so I really don’t feel like rolling out my entire rig and trying to run sound all night to split $150 three ways (back into the band fund).

Ahh yeah, those shows! Our kids all do them hear so they learn to be grateful when they have the full PA. I do those either with an Alto TS310, or a Katana 100 that I swapped in a Celestion F12 200 "FRFR" speaker. WAY more than enough volume