Is a bit of struggle a good thing?

[fetishfrog]

Is weight-training difficult? Is exercising? Is gaining an higher education difficult? Is
marriage and child-rearing challenging?

(Obviously, rhetorical)

Resistance is our friend, not our enemy. It makes us stronger and more fit and offers
us opportunities to become smarter and adapt to the forces arrayed against us---and
there are forces arrayed against us from gravity to the need for oxygen to hunger,
thirst and the unquenchable desire meaning.

I love a chance to post a quote from one of my favourite books/poets of all-time. I have
done my best to adhere to this principle and life my life in accordance with seeking out
challenges and difficulties and not running from them into a life of slack-eyed slothfulness. :lol


View attachment 30933

To take your weight lifting analogy, you wouldn't take a brand new, beginning lifter and have them squat 4 plates a side to learn form. You'd teach them with the bar, and let them work up to the weight.

And besides music is difficult enough. No need to give a beginner an instrument to fight with. It'll be enough of a fight with a well playing instrument as it is.

Love me some Rilke too.

 

[Eagle]

My picking hand likes 10/11s and my fretting hand likes 9s but with a good instrument and a good set up I am happy with 9-11s

 

[metropolis_4]

Is weight-training difficult? Is exercising? Is gaining an higher education difficult? Is
marriage and child-rearing challenging?

(Obviously, rhetorical)

Resistance is our friend, not our enemy. It makes us stronger and more fit and offers
us opportunities to become smarter and adapt to the forces arrayed against us---and
there are forces arrayed against us from gravity to the need for oxygen to hunger,
thirst and the unquenchable desire meaning.

I love a chance to post a quote from one of my favourite books/poets of all-time. I have
done my best to adhere to this principle and life my life in accordance with seeking out
challenges and difficulties and not running from them into a life of slack-eyed slothfulness. :lol


View attachment 30933

There is something about motivation as well where psychologically the harder we have to work to achieve something, the greater the sense of accomplishment we have, and the more that victory means to us. Which is more motivating to us.

Hard fought victories are the sweetest

 

[metropolis_4]

My first guitar was a 4 string nylon pos (it was supposed to have 6 strings ) but I didn't care. I didn't even know how to tune the thing but I taught myself the opening riffs to Iron Man and Smoke on the Water. It took a while but my older brother ended up getting me a cheap electric guitar because he saw I was serious.

No matter what gear you have, you have to be determined, stubborn and just love doing it. No gear can create that part of you inside.

That is the key to the whole question of whether someone will push through and persevere, or give up.

It doesn’t matter what gear you have, if you don’t have the drive, determination and love for it, you’ll only go so far. If you have that passion for something you’ll push through all obstacles.

In some ways I think bad beginner gear is just a quicker way to weed out those who don’t really have that passion. They’d likely end up quitting anyway even if they had the ultimate gear at the start.

 

[the-trooper]

There is something about motivation as well where psychologically the harder we have to work to achieve something, the greater the sense of accomplishment we have,

Absolutely not applicable in learning an instrument scenario. Even if you have the best instrument available in the universe you'll still have to spend hours upon hours daily practicing and learning music if you want to master it.

Comparing instrument playing and weight lifting (and other silly comparisons in this thread) makes zero sense.
- Want to lift weights? Great, here's gravity, you can start with that.
- WTF?

Giving a beginner a shit instrument is nothing more than adding artificial unnecessary hurdles which will hold him at the hobbyist beginner level, draining run down washed out pentatonic licks and three note stuck in the '70s riffs, which is where I'm guessing all "YoU gOtTa WoRk FoR iT" supporters exactly are.

 

[metropolis_4]

Absolutely not applicable in learning an instrument scenario. Even if you have the best instrument available in the universe you'll still have to spend hours upon hours daily practicing and learning music if you want to master it.

Comparing instrument playing and weight lifting (and other silly comparisons in this thread) makes zero sense.
- Want to lift weights? Great, here's gravity, you can start with that.
- WTF?

Giving a beginner a shit instrument is nothing more than adding artificial unnecessary hurdles which will hold him at the hobbyist beginner level, draining run down washed out pentatonic licks and three note stuck in the '70s riffs, which is where I'm guessing all "YoU gOtTa WoRk FoR iT" supporters exactly are.

Wait, did you really just turn this into a personal attack on my playing ability?

I thought we were better than that around here

 

[the-trooper]

Wait, did you really just turn this into a personal attack on my playing ability?

Not just yours

 

[Ed DeGenaro]

My playing improved significantly when I graduated from a shitty Squier to a Prestige Ibanez.
Because I did not have any excuses anymore and there was no doubt whether the instrument or my lack of technique was to blame when something did not work.

My playing improved drastically when I paid more attention to ears and time then choos.

 

[Ed DeGenaro]

Absolutely not applicable in learning an instrument scenario. Even if you have the best instrument available in the universe you'll still have to spend hours upon hours daily practicing and learning music if you want to master it.

Comparing instrument playing and weight lifting (and other silly comparisons in this thread) makes zero sense.
- Want to lift weights? Great, here's gravity, you can start with that.
- WTF?

Giving a beginner a shit instrument is nothing more than adding artificial unnecessary hurdles which will hold him at the hobbyist beginner level, draining run down washed out pentatonic licks and three note stuck in the '70s riffs, which is where I'm guessing all "YoU gOtTa WoRk FoR iT" supporters exactly are.

The instrument is the person and it often takes decades for that to sink in...

 

[likitlikeyoulikeit]

The instrument is the person and it often takes decades for that to sink in...

I have been saying this for friggen years!!!!!! Yes @Ed DeGenaro this times infinity!!!!!!!

 

[stonge]

I've had the (dis)pleasure to own a couple of guitar-shaped-objects whose sole purpose was to dissuade the casual. I've given away a couple of guitars to friends who wanted to play but I always set them up to remove unnecessary obstacles. If you prefer to work with arbitrary constraints, go for it if it suits your desires.

Ed DeGenaro said:
The instrument is the person and it often takes decades for that to sink in...

I'm going to write that on my favorite tele to remind myself (the first part of it anyhow). Probably one of the best comments I've ever seen posted in an online forum. Thanks Ed!

 

[Rock Chalk]

Dang, I guess I'm supposed to feel bad now because my favorite thing to play is Rocky Mountain Way?......well I don't.....

 

[Ed DeGenaro]

I've had the (dis)pleasure to own a couple of guitar-shaped-objects whose sole purpose was to dissuade the casual. I've given away a couple of guitars to friends who wanted to play but I always set them up to remove unnecessary obstacles. If you prefer to work with arbitrary constraints, go for it if it suits your desires.

Ed DeGenaro said:
The instrument is the person and it often takes decades for that to sink in...

I'm going to write that on my favorite tele to remind myself (the first part of it anyhow). Probably one of the best comments I've ever seen posted in an online forum. Thanks Ed!

Look I like to burn money as much as the next guy in gear.
But I'm super aware that I do it for want nit need. .

Back 2 decades ago I still wanted any amp to respond the way I needed.
Eventually I realised I couldn't approach a say Oahu like a Hiwatt or a Park etc...
Once that sunk in it was clear if it didn't sound right it want gear but my hands. ..

 

[TSJMajesty]

There was a scene in Whiplash where "...Fletcher tells Andrew that Parker became a great musician after Jones threw a cymbal at him, nearly decapitating him. This led Parker to practice obsessively and become one of the greatest musical geniuses of the 20th century."

He went on to state (I'm paraphrasing) how he believed that approach was the way to bring out the very best in a person who would be destined for greatness, and that if his instructor hadn't done that, the world would've been lesser off, because he wouldn't have reached the level that he did.

But Andrew countered with the idea that that same scenario could've discouraged him so much that he would've quit, also depriving the world of that potential 'greatness.'

To me, having any sort of obstacle/resistance/undo hardship is mostly going to come down to whether it actually works for you, depending on the type of person you are.

I don't believe there's an absolute correct answer for everyone. Some will persevere, and some will give up. Everyone here who has stated their answer gave their reasons, so really, none of us can say they're wrong, for themselves.

But for people who have a greater sample than just themself, i.e., teachers, me personally, I'd tend to put more faith into their opinion on this subject, because they've seen the results across a greater number of students learning an instrument.

 

[Ed DeGenaro]

There was a scene in Whiplash where "...Fletcher tells Andrew that Parker became a great musician after Jones threw a cymbal at him, nearly decapitating him. This led Parker to practice obsessively and become one of the greatest musical geniuses of the 20th century."

He went on to state (I'm paraphrasing) how he believed that approach was the way to bring out the very best in a person who would be destined for greatness, and that if his instructor hadn't done that, the world would've been lesser off, because he wouldn't have reached the level that he did.

But Andrew countered with the idea that that same scenario could've discouraged him so much that he would've quit, also depriving the world of that potential 'greatness.'

To me, having any sort of obstacle/resistance/undo hardship is mostly going to come down to whether it actually works for you, depending on the type of person you are.

I don't believe there's an absolute correct answer for everyone. Some will persevere, and some will give up. Everyone here who has stated their answer gave their reasons, so really, none of us can say they're wrong, for themselves.

But for people who have a greater sample than just themself, i.e., teachers, me personally, I'd tend to put more faith into their opinion on this subject, because they've seen the results across a greater number of students learning an instrument.

Well there is a right answer, if tough love breaks you it ain't what you should do as an occupation.

When I have some more time I tell you the stories of when I got gonged leaving LA and coming back got gonged again and I went deep in the wood shed.

Btw same shit happened to Jaco, and he's the Jimi of bass.

Bottom line...you gotta embrace the suck.
If it's all about "I wanna kill" you live in Dreamland.


Ps. I gotta plenty of pro and hobbyist friends...the hobby guys keep talking about that they can do xyz as well.
Yet they don't, they talk.
And that's what gear is our escape from doing.
And that included me

 

[stonge]

Look I like to burn money as much as the next guy in gear.
But I'm super aware that I do it for want nit need. .

Back 2 decades ago I still wanted any amp to respond the way I needed.
Eventually I realised I couldn't approach a say Oahu like a Hiwatt or a Park etc...
Once that sunk in it was clear if it didn't sound right it want gear but my hands. ..

Yeah, my running joke is that all of my signature guitars must be defective, because they don't sound anything like SRV or Vai or Les Paul. They just sound like me...

It might have been Rick Nielsen of Cheap Trick who, when asked how he gets his sound, replied "I can generally make any guitar sound lousy". Now I find I have more in common with one of musical heroes then I thought lol...

 

[Ed DeGenaro]

Yeah, my running joke is that all of my signature guitars must be defective, because they don't sound anything like SRV or Vai or Les Paul. They just sound like me...

It might have been Rick Nielsen of Cheap Trick who, when asked how he gets his sound, replied "I can generally make any guitar sound lousy". Now I find I have more in common with one of musical heroes then I thought lol...

As much as I find self deprecating shit amusing...seeing Nielson in 78 was the reason to get a Hamer Explorer that back literally was twice the price of 76 explorer

 

[fetishfrog]

You can teach people to persevere without beating them down with 'tough love'.

One of the great benefits of teaching this way is you also get to teach people that when someone beats you down, it often isn't 'tough love'. It's just someone trying to beat you down. People behave this way for all sorts of reasons, none of them good.

Parker didn't need a cymbal tossed at his head to achieve greatness. We're all the better for the fact that he took it the way he did.

 

[Warmart]

I have been saying this for friggen years!!!!!! Yes @Ed DeGenaro this times infinity!!!!!!!

Just kiddin', lmao though

 

[likitlikeyoulikeit]

Just kiddin', lmao though

I picked it up from vedic literature, from India. But I suppose.