IK Multimedia TONEX

[EOengineer]

Sounds like IK are cooking up a helix style unit with no doubt ToneX captures alongside Amplitube effects.

Is this an assumption or have you seen something concrete confirming it? It does seem like the obvious play but I think it requires the introduction of a novel hardware device for IK, which may be a significant obstacle at this point.

 

[Sascha Franck]

And fwiw I think IK should take a lot of hints from the Genome software haha. It was very refreshing compared to the Tonex stuff, and I basically immediately "got it", even with a lot more options available.

Well, I only partially agree.
The NAM block in Genome is absolutely excellent, I wish something like that was available in the Tonex-ecosystem, especially on the hardware. But Genome's NAM file management is as bad as it gets - simply because it's not existing at all. This is something IK has done *way* better (even if it's still leaving several things to be desired).

 

[synthpenguin]

Well, I only partially agree.
The NAM block in Genome is absolutely excellent, I wish something like that was available in the Tonex-ecosystem, especially on the hardware. But Genome's NAM file management is as bad as it gets - simply because it's not existing at all. This is something IK has done *way* better (even if it's still leaving several things to be desired).

I think it depends on what you want. I went from never using NAM before to having a few different capture sets downloaded, organized, and easily available in Genome in no time—much faster than my experience with Tonex. But I’m generally comfortable with file management and creating my own folder structure, and I prefer doing that at a system level vs librarian software that typically gets in the way, at least for things like this (reminds me of Capture One vs Lightroom debates ha).

If you’re someone who collects a lot of captures and wants to be able to use tags, filters, etc to sift through them, I can see how this approach would be a miss, but I’m not, so that stuff usually just gets in the way for me, and even if I was, I’d rather just organize them in my own folder structure anyway because that’ll be way faster (and tbh less overwhelming) for how I think.

Also, fwiw I loved how easy and quick it was to switch between captures in the same folder. This made it WAY easier to demo and compare captures of different amp settings within the context of your current preset, which is always so cumbersome and annoying with Tonex.

ETA: like with most things like this, the ideal is probably a synthesis of both, so I think it would be cool if IK took some cues from software like this, while also keeping the librarian features that a lot of people love. It’s always tough for software to balance these things.

 

[Sascha Franck]

But I’m generally comfortable with file management and creating my own folder structure

No issues with that, either - just that the folder structure isn't exactly represented in Genome.
There should be drag'n'drop and a freely arrangeable amount of folders and subfolders, all displayed within a typical tree menu.
Heck, ideally all these things would use system default things, namely a Finder-alike thing on macOS, an Explorer-alike thing on Windows.

Fwiw, the worst being Native Instruments. They're incredibly wellknown for royally fucking up each and any browser idea that might only come to completely twisted brains in the first place. I still remember the horror when updating from Battery 2 to 3. Version 2 used a nice popup window that was basically an Explorer/Finder "open" dialog with some extras. Just great. Folder structures the way you're used to, display modes the way you're used to, resizeable window, etc. Just perfect. And then they messed it up in favour of what's got to be one of *the* worst file browsers ever. Should've earned them each and every UI design incompetence award.

 

[Progressive_disclosure]

Found the Genome + NAM process very smooth and easy. It was cool to compare a NAM capture to a Tonex capture with what I'm doing (tube pre > power amp capture). I setup an A/B system in a DAW, going between Tonex and Genome with a key press, and found it really interesting. I was using Fireball 25 power amp captures by @Progressive_disclosure in both cases, and was able to get them sounding almost identical. I believe the NAM version of the capture was done at a slightly different master volume setting, but interestingly I was able to get them extremely close just by upping the gain of the Tonex by a notch and making a slight upper mid cut. The high end of the NAM capture was definitely a bit more "detailed" in a way you can't just EQ into the Tonex, but otherwise I was pleased with both.

And fwiw I think IK should take a lot of hints from the Genome software haha. It was very refreshing compared to the Tonex stuff, and I basically immediately "got it", even with a lot more options available.

Anyway, I know this is a Tonex thread, so the long story short is that while NAM is noticeably better when A/Bing, Tonex definitely holds its own to my ears, at least a v2 capture.

Nice, interesting to hear your comparison! I have another capture done with Extended training for Tonex that I haven’t uploaded yet. Might be a tiny bit closer to NAM with that one. And yes, leveling between tonex and NAM is something I haven’t figured out yet!

 

[laxu]

No issues with that, either - just that the folder structure isn't exactly represented in Genome.
There should be drag'n'drop and a freely arrangeable amount of folders and subfolders, all displayed within a typical tree menu.
Heck, ideally all these things would use system default things, namely a Finder-alike thing on macOS, an Explorer-alike thing on Windows.

I'd rather the software does not try to reinvent the wheel here. File browsers, OS standard or 3rd party, are far more suited for file management.

The only thing I'd add to Genome is the ability to display folders in the capture list for the currently selected capture directory. Just a side bar for picking a folder.

PS. If you need more complex file managers (dual pane views, more complex sort/filter/highlight stuff etc), Path Finder is great on MacOS and Directory Opus on Windows.

 

[Sascha Franck]

I'd rather the software does not try to reinvent the wheel here. File browsers, OS standard or 3rd party, are far more suited for file management.

Absolutely. But in that case, the software needs a link to that file structure. At least drag and drop should be possible.

The only thing I'd add to Genome is the ability to display folders in the capture list for the currently selected capture directory. Just a side bar for picking a folder.

I wish there would at least be a file selector that would stay opened. Think things such as, say, the preset list in HX Native. But no, in Genome you always have to reach for a pulldown. Which is extremely annoying.
Once I'm in whatever folder, I want that folder to stay opened and want to be able to browse patches with my arrow keys. Which is working just fine with Tonex. And it's absolutely excellent.

 

[Dimiguitar]

Btw.. One thing I found capturing high gain amps: typically I won't be able to consistently hear the difference in recordings. They're that close.

But there can be a difference in feel. How meaningful it is, up to each individual to decide.... If they think there's a gap there at all.

Now for me, the perceived difference is not very meaningful. But I like getting captures or fractal amp sims as close as possible to source.

It's a fun exercise, if nothing else. Aaaand the result feels better, for me, after the tweaking below. A smidgeon better. And closer to the amp.

If you run into such cases: play with the advanced EQ controls of tonex. If you perceive lack of "weight" in low mutes, set the bass knob to 100hz thereabouts and increase the bass. Works better for me than depth knob. Same goes for other controls, if needed.

I typically leave the mid alone and MAY boost very little treble at around 4k also. The treble is much more accurate now, so I don't do much.

(Previously I'd shoot EQ compensation IR due to the high end issues of V1. No way to compensate properly with built in controls).

Also, very importantly, look at gain control (for sound as well). I typically do this first, and check again a couple of times. Very slight adjustments can make a good difference. I found that comparing with the real amp while playing live is best to fine tune this along with the EQ.

We aren't going for sound, much, but feel, after all.

And to end this: I'm not claiming there's a massive difference between amp and how the capture comes out initially. (Minus maybe the gain, but it seems better with V2 now... I thought it was the same initially).

The adjustments above can be very slight. It depends. For me, they just get the feel that little hairball closer to source.

PS: some used to recomend several tweaks on Kemper to get closer in sound and feel. For whatever reason, I found nothing to be effective. Tonex is a different story. So I don't mean the above works for me with every unit.

 

[laxu]

If someone wants a neat way to control their Tonex One using their Android phone, the MIDI Chief app can do it!

It's a bit flaky, with some quirks and caveats:

• At first it kept crashing over and over but eventually stabilized. The best way seems to be to launch the app without Tonex One connected via USB, and set up all the permissions and whatnot.
• Then you want to quit the app, and connect the Tonex One. At least for me the phone suggested opening MIDI Chief and then it worked.
• It won't track the changes you do on the pedal itself, but they can be used.

The patch system is a bit weird. It allows you to assign multiple patches to one on-screen footswitch, but the patch system requires the name of the patch to contain "+ 1" to make this happen. At least that's how I got it working. So I had e.g "Tonex Preset 1" and "Tonex Preset 1 + 1" patches to get them to work.

For each patch you program what MIDI input it reacts to (in case you have a wireless MIDI unit which can connect to the phone), and what to do on the Tonex when it is received. But then you can just tap on the "Live" screen on the virtual pedal icons to switch. Easiest to see the Tonex lights change on PC messages.

This will afaik do the same job as those Pirate MIDI boxes, but using whatever phone you have lying around so it's cheaper. I assume Pirate MIDI is more robust and straightforward tho.

Parameter editing seemed to work alright too.

In any case, a good alternative to add more control to your Tonex One for little money.

 

[KingsXJJ]

Btw.. One thing I found capturing high gain amps: typically I won't be able to consistently hear the difference in recordings. They're that close.

But there can be a difference in feel. How meaningful it is, up to each individual to decide.... If they think there's a gap there at all.

Now for me, the perceived difference is not very meaningful. But I like getting captures or fractal amp sims as close as possible to source.

It's a fun exercise, if nothing else. Aaaand the result feels better, for me, after the tweaking below. A smidgeon better. And closer to the amp.

If you run into such cases: play with the advanced EQ controls of tonex. If you perceive lack of "weight" in low mutes, set the bass knob to 100hz thereabouts and increase the bass. Works better for me than depth knob. Same goes for other controls, if needed.

I typically leave the mid alone and MAY boost very little treble at around 4k also. The treble is much more accurate now, so I don't do much.

(Previously I'd shoot EQ compensation IR due to the high end issues of V1. No way to compensate properly with built in controls).

Also, very importantly, look at gain control (for sound as well). I typically do this first, and check again a couple of times. Very slight adjustments can make a good difference. I found that comparing with the real amp while playing live is best to fine tune this along with the EQ.

We aren't going for sound, much, but feel, after all.

And to end this: I'm not claiming there's a massive difference between amp and how the capture comes out initially. (Minus maybe the gain, but it seems better with V2 now... I thought it was the same initially).

The adjustments above can be very slight. It depends. For me, they just get the feel that little hairball closer to source.

PS: some used to recomend several tweaks on Kemper to get closer in sound and feel. For whatever reason, I found nothing to be effective. Tonex is a different story. So I don't mean the above works for me with every unit.

I’m over ToneX with V2 or not. I want parametric captures that encapsulate the full range of gain, EQ and volume/master volume of the amp.

Captures with modeling flexibility or GTFO. Or perhaps an advanced combination of black and white box renderings like Hotone has started to explore.

 

[Sascha Franck]

This will afaik do the same job as those Pirate MIDI boxes, but using whatever phone you have lying around so it's cheaper. I assume Pirate MIDI is more robust and straightforward tho.

Yeah well, you need a phone for this to work at all (I was stumbling upon it some days back already), which rules it out for live use, at least for me.

 

[laxu]

Yeah well, you need a phone for this to work at all (I was stumbling upon it some days back already), which rules it out for live use, at least for me.

I mean, it's not like you can't slap e.g an old phone on a board, and its battery is likely to last a gig too. But I get how the Pirate MIDI stuff can be convenient.

 

[bucephalus]

I’m over ToneX with V2 or not. I want parametric captures that encapsulate the full range of gain, EQ and volume/master volume of the amp.

Captures with modeling flexibility or GTFO. Or perhaps an advanced combination of black and white box renderings like Hotone has started to explore.

 

[Sascha Franck]

I mean, it's not like you can't slap e.g an old phone on a board, and its battery is likely to last a gig too.

Sure. But there's only BT MIDI, adding another layer of possibly errors, etc. With the PM Pico it's an analog MIDI connection and a little translator box, no blown up full mobile OS.

 

[Sascha Franck]

I’m over ToneX with V2 or not. I want parametric captures that encapsulate the full range of gain, EQ and volume/master volume of the amp.

Such as in your GP-5?