How do I make the direct to PA sound of a modeler not terrible?

[Count_Drugula]

It's probably been asked hundreds of times but this is specific to ToneX One, which I just got a few weeks ago with the intention of running direct for some practices or gigs. For reference, I'm a complete noob when it comes to modeling tech.

I downloaded some good patches and spent the weekend capturing my 2 favorite amps, they all sound pretty great in my DAW through my monitors. Plugged in direct to the PA is absolute shite though. Id be embarrassed to sound like that. It's just shrill, boxy, and so fake sounding.

Is it possible to do this without adding a cab or a bunch of other expensive gear? If I'm lugging a cab, power amp, frfr, etc then I'm bringing my real amp. Maybe I'm missing something but I feel like that's what these things are designed to do, no?

 

[ian_dissonance]

Are you cranking it up the volume you’d play at when you’re capturing? Any post eq in the process. Typically live tones need a lot of work to fit in a studio mix and studio tones need a lot of work to fit in a live mix. Making adjustments at performance volume is usually preferred.

 

[Chocol8]

Not something I am doing in my old age much, but IME, I need to dial in with PA speakers at PA volume, and using a backing track (or super patient band members). What I dial in for low volume monitors is different than what works for headphones and what works for live/loud. There is too much going on with fletcher munson, and also PA speakers not being flat, plus you really need to dial-in in the context of a mix IMHO.

Taking something dialed in to play alone at home at low volume, to live volume in a band context just never worked for me, tube or digital.

 

[sleewell]

ive found it pretty easy on the QC. i found a tonelab capture on the cloud for free that is based on josh from whitechapels rig. before i found that i found some good tones from copying some of the blocks from the modern power factory preset.

 

[Blix]

Step 1, have a good PA. What is this PA you plug into?

 

[HotRats]

A well captured amp (or just IR) of a well placed sm57, straight to the PA, should sound fine.
If not there's somenthing else going on.

 

[banned]

How is the PA set on the mixing console? Any EQ?

Appropriate gain staging?

FWIW, I never PLAY to the PA - I always play through a guitar cab to get the right feel and tone. Everything else sounds and feels like I'm using a modeler - not the modelers fault - just the fact of playing through high-fidelity speakers vs low-fidelity guitar speakers.

 

[EOengineer]

I suppose the first question I’d ask is if you’ve ever heard your amp miced up through that PA without your amp being right there to flood your perception of how things are sounding? A miced amp through a full range system sounds and feels tremendously different than playing your amp through a guitar cab.

As others have suggested, you’re going to need to dial in your tones at something approaching stage volume or you’ll likely end up taking your face off with top end thanks to our old friend Fletcher-Munson.

 

[JCW308]

High and low cuts

Have an accurate way to monitor while creating patches (studio monitors LOUD)

Use a good, accurate PA system or at least keep your channel's EQ on the PA flat to start and make very small adjustments

Use global EQ on your modeler to adjust for each venue

 

[JiveTurkey]

 

[Digital Igloo]

Obligatory link.

 

[deathbyguitar]

Obligatory link.

You have a single dog named Bill&Ted? Love it. Pictures of both, plz???

 

[ragingplatypi]

All good advice here. If you don’t have a chance to work on your tone with the PA at volume before playing, I would have an eq and compressor (optional) at the ready. Also if you use reverb and delay be ready to adjust the mix levels quickly.

 

[Digital Igloo]

You have a single dog named Bill&Ted? Love it. Pictures of both, plz???

L-R: Bill&Ted, Paddles

Sadly, Paddles passed away in August. He was an extremely good boy and lived a long, happy life (might've been 18, 19?). Deaf, blind, toothless, wore puddle pants in the house, ran into furniture, and had a cutaneous horn growing out of the side of his tail; he called it his "scorpion stinger."

 

[Count_Drugula]

Are you cranking it up the volume you’d play at when you’re capturing? Any post eq in the process. Typically live tones need a lot of work to fit in a studio mix and studio tones need a lot of work to fit in a live mix. Making adjustments at performance volume is usually preferred.

I've tried all different levels but I play pretty loud most of the time. No post EQ going on. I understand the difference between live and home tones, never a problem on my real amps because I EQ a lot of mids and shelf the lows. These tones just...suck?

Step 1, have a good PA. What is this PA you plug into?

Budget Yamaha MG16 mixer isn't the greatest but my RCF speakers are pretty nice. It's definitely not the PA, it sounds very good otherwise. It's the same PA I use for live work.

How is the PA set on the mixing console? Any EQ?

Appropriate gain staging?

FWIW, I never PLAY to the PA - I always play through a guitar cab to get the right feel and tone. Everything else sounds and feels like I'm using a modeler - not the modelers fault - just the fact of playing through high-fidelity speakers vs low-fidelity guitar speakers.

Flat with the HPF set, maybe a little less highs and lows shaved off too. Gain staging is fine. I kind of bought this solely for that reason of convenience. If I'm bringing cabs, I'm bringing my real amp as well.

I suppose the first question I’d ask is if you’ve ever heard your amp miced up through that PA without your amp being right there to flood your perception of how things are sounding? A miced amp through a full range system sounds and feels tremendously different than playing your amp through a guitar cab.

As others have suggested, you’re going to need to dial in your tones at something approaching stage volume or you’ll likely end up taking your face off with top end thanks to our old friend Fletcher-Munson.

Yes and it sounds awesome. I have the cabs in an isolated room and record with a 57 + 441. Maybe I need to sit in front of the PA and dial this thing in at volume. I thought a captured recording of my amps / cab would = that same tone through the PA but it's not even close.

 

[Count_Drugula]

High and low cuts

Have an accurate way to monitor while creating patches (studio monitors LOUD)

Use a good, accurate PA system or at least keep your channel's EQ on the PA flat to start and make very small adjustments

Use global EQ on your modeler to adjust for each venue

Monitors were pretty loud, the captures mostly sound good through my DAW and studio monitors. I don't think I have global EQ available on the ToneX One?

 

[Tito83]

I've tried everything I could think of, in the end I just cut highs and lows until it sounds good. Usually it's a lot more than you think. At home same tone sounds dull as hell.

 

[Frodebro]

What I did to "learn" how my presets translated to the PA I run through with the band was to add an EQ block and a filter block right after the cab block in my main preset I was using at the time. Over the course of a rehearsal I made EQ and hi/lo cut adjustments periodically (and quickly) until I was happy with the sound.

Then, I used that preset as a reference when building other presets at home. I did it that way until I trained my ears to hear things "correctly" through the studio monitors as they would translate to the band PA, and that has worked pretty well for me.

 

[ian_dissonance]

I don’t know then. It sounds like you should know what you’re doing. I get my chains set up and get it close at home, crank it up in the rehearsal room and turn the knobs again until it sounds good and that seems to work for me.

 

[Count_Drugula]

What I did to "learn" how my presets translated to the PA I run through with the band was to add an EQ block and a filter block right after the cab block in my main preset I was using at the time. Over the course of a rehearsal I made EQ and hi/lo cut adjustments periodically (and quickly) until I was happy with the sound.

Then, I used that preset as a reference when building other presets at home. I did it that way until I trained my ears to hear things "correctly" through the studio monitors as they would translate to the band PA, and that has worked pretty well for me.

Am I missing something or does the ToneX One not have these options? I suppose I could hook up my laptop and try to edit in real time in the app but I don't think my band has the patience for that.