How do I make the direct to PA sound of a modeler not terrible?

[Mongillo19]

Am I missing something or does the ToneX One not have these options? I suppose I could hook up my laptop and try to edit in real time in the app but I don't think my band has the patience for that.

I think there was a discussion somewhere else on here where you cannot do a high low cut on the Tone X

 

[[Nathan]]

I've tried everything I could think of, in the end I just cut highs and lows until it sounds good. Usually it's a lot more than you think. At home same tone sounds dull as hell.

I found the same while using an FR cab recently, wasn’t a fan. Don’t have the same issues running digital (with no IR) into a poweramp and cab, that always comes out great. Different use case of course, doesn’t help OP. But yeah some quick and savage low/high cuts will help

 

[Chocol8]

I think there was a discussion somewhere else on here where you cannot do a high low cut on the Tone X

There are no high and low cuts in the cab block. There are EQ options, and they work well, just not as full featured as everyone wants.

 

[Chocol8]

I thought a captured recording of my amps / cab would = that same tone through the PA but it's not even close.

If it’s not even close, either the PA sucks or you have some sort of gain staging/level issue. The Tonex doesn’t know it is feeding a PA, it spits out the same tone to whatever playback system is connected.

 

[Count_Drugula]

If it’s not even close, either the PA sucks or you have some sort of gain staging/level issue. The Tonex doesn’t know it is feeding a PA, it spits out the same tone to whatever playback system is connected.

I get that but the PA definitely does not suck and there's no gain staging issues, I've recorded for years and run sound for my band so I understand all of that stuff. My only conclusion then is that this stuff just sucks straight into a PA. Digital is cool into a DAW or if you use a bunch of other things to pump up the sound through a cab but maybe the direct sounds for live aren't there yet. Looks like I'm sticking with my tube amp and cab and may as well sell the ToneX One.

 

[burningyen]

My #1 tip that I repeat ad nauseum: Dial in gig presets at full band volume through a quality monitor. You're not done until the presets are tested in context with the band. Presets dialed in at home-friendly volume are almost guaranteed to sound shrill live.

 

[jay mitchell]

If you can get your modeler to sound good to you through small, transparent monitors, then it is not the problem.

 

[Chocol8]

My only conclusion then is that this stuff just sucks straight into a PA.

That doesn't even begin to make sense which means one of your premises is obviously wrong. Either your PA is not as good as you think, something is configured wrong, or you are not used to hearing a mic'ed amp tone through a PA.

Think about it. If you can record a miced amp and a digital tone and they sound extremely close, if you play those two recordings through a PA they should still sound extremely close. There is nothing about the original digital source that the PA will know is different. If a DJ was using the PA would you be able to instantly tell which studio recordings were done digitally because they would sound awful compared to recordings where amps were used in the studio? Of course not!

Now if you want to fix the problem, admit to yourself that you must be doing something wrong and figure it out. Maybe play some recordings through your PA. Do they sound very different? Do they sound crappy? If so, it's not the modeler.

If recorded music sounds fine, record something from Tonex that sounds good on your monitors and play that through the PA and compare it to the Tonex direct to the PA. If they don't sound the same you have a configuration issue.

There is absolutely no reason Tonex won't sound as good or better than any other digital solution OR mic'ed amp through the PA. Enough of us have done it, and tons of people are doing it every day.

 

[ian_dissonance]

I get that but the PA definitely does not suck and there's no gain staging issues, I've recorded for years and run sound for my band so I understand all of that stuff. My only conclusion then is that this stuff just sucks straight into a PA. Digital is cool into a DAW or if you use a bunch of other things to pump up the sound through a cab but maybe the direct sounds for love aren't there yet. Looks like I'm sticking with my tube amp and cab and may as well sell the ToneX One.

Yeah, no. Did you forget an IR or something? TONS of professional acts are using captures and modeling direct to the PA in rooms with $100k+ systems and it sounds great.

 

[Chocol8]

I am starting to wonder if this is just a troll or anti-digital rant rather than a serious request for help to solve a real problem?

 

[HotRats]

I get that but the PA definitely does not suck and there's no gain staging issues, I've recorded for years and run sound for my band so I understand all of that stuff. My only conclusion then is that this stuff just sucks straight into a PA. Digital is cool into a DAW or if you use a bunch of other things to pump up the sound through a cab but maybe the direct sounds for love aren't there yet. Looks like I'm sticking with my tube amp and cab and may as well sell the ToneX One.

As others have already wrote this doesn't make sense.

I'm not here to convince you but I play a tube amp with a cab on stage but I don't put a mic in front of the cab, I instead use a device that takes the signal from the amp before the cab, pass it through an IR and send it to the PA and guess what? It sounds fantastic.

It the amp (being it real, a model or a capture) sound is good (meaning is not messed up badly with abusrd settings), a simple IR of an sm57 placed on the edge of the dust cap should sound absolutley fine with no need of further tweakings if the the PA is half decent.

 

[JCW308]

I get that but the PA definitely does not suck and there's no gain staging issues, I've recorded for years and run sound for my band so I understand all of that stuff. My only conclusion then is that this stuff just sucks straight into a PA. Digital is cool into a DAW or if you use a bunch of other things to pump up the sound through a cab but maybe the direct sounds for love aren't there yet. Looks like I'm sticking with my tube amp and cab and may as well sell the ToneX One.

And that would be incorrect, as many people are having zero issues going direct into FOH with many different brands of modelers for years.

So this is a training thing and not an "all modelers suck" thing.

 

[Count_Drugula]

That doesn't even begin to make sense which means one of your premises is obviously wrong. Either your PA is not as good as you think, something is configured wrong, or you are not used to hearing a mic'ed amp tone through a PA.

Think about it. If you can record a miced amp and a digital tone and they sound extremely close, if you play those two recordings through a PA they should still sound extremely close. There is nothing about the original digital source that the PA will know is different. If a DJ was using the PA would you be able to instantly tell which studio recordings were done digitally because they would sound awful compared to recordings where amps were used in the studio? Of course not!

Now if you want to fix the problem, admit to yourself that you must be doing something wrong and figure it out. Maybe play some recordings through your PA. Do they sound very different? Do they sound crappy? If so, it's not the modeler.

If recorded music sounds fine, record something from Tonex that sounds good on your monitors and play that through the PA and compare it to the Tonex direct to the PA. If they don't sound the same you have a configuration issue.

There is absolutely no reason Tonex won't sound as good or better than any other digital solution OR mic'ed amp through the PA. Enough of us have done it, and tons of people are doing it every day.

I agree it doesn't make sense, hence me starting this thread! I'm not trolling, I'm legitimately trying to find a use for this thing and so far it's only OK into my computer and Neumann monitors. Through my PA it's utter garbage and the PA sounds great for literally everything else so....you do the math.

I'm fine admitting I'm doing something wrong, and there's no doubt that may be the case b/c I know very little about modeling. I'm trying to figure out what that could be but all the suggestions so far are things I tried.

I like the idea of playing my recorded captures. I'm going to record a clip in Pro Tools of my favorite captures I've done of my amps and play them back through my PA in the same room I play those amps in everyday. That should be some kind of litmus test, no?

Yeah, no. Did you forget an IR or something? TONS of professional acts are using captures and modeling direct to the PA in rooms with $100k+ systems and it sounds great.

LOL, no. I will say I don't like the sound of digital amps live that I've heard but they are usually decent sounds. I know I'm not on some high budget pro sound PA but mine are not even close.

As others have already wrote this doesn't make sense.

I'm not here to convince you but I play a tube amp with a cab on stage but I don't put a mic in front of the cab, I instead use a device that takes the signal from the amp before the cab, pass it through an IR and send it to the PA and guess what? It sounds fantastic.

It the amp sound is good (meaning is not messed up badly with abusrd settings), a simple IR of an sm57 placed on the edge of the dust cap should sound absolutley fine with no need of further tweakings if the the PA is half decent.

That's what I don't understand either. I'm trying to make this work for the sake of convenience. I've spent years dialing in my live tube amp tone and it sounds fantastic, I get compliments every show. I've tracked all the guitars on our recent album and they sound killer. Point is, I know what I'm doing in that realm, I just can't make this work for me...so far.

What are using to send an IR to FOH? I've thought about doing that instead of micing my amp.

 

[Count_Drugula]

And that would be incorrect, as many people are having zero issues going direct into FOH with many different brands of modelers for years.

So this is a training thing and not an "all modelers suck" thing.

I wish I could agree but so far I don't. Maybe it's just not for me. I also don't know what kind of elaborate systems others are using to accomplish this. I'm talking about this pedal direct to the PA, nothing else involved.

 

[paisleywookiee]

Are you running the TX1 literally directly into the PA? No DI?

 

[EOengineer]

Maybe play some recordings through your PA. Do they sound very different? Do they sound crappy? If so, it's not the modeler.

This was going to be my suggestion as well. Maybe go as far as to take a recording of the capture that sounds good on the near fields and play it back through the PA.

TBH I interpreted the fact that the caps sound good on nearfields is a signal that the caps may have too much full range content for live use. My Tonex and Helix studio patches do not translate live. I have separate versions where I’m low passing as low as 4.5kHz in some cases. Those caps sound dull and dark on my nearfields.

 

[Count_Drugula]

Are you running the TX1 literally directly into the PA? No DI?

I've tried both and don't notice any difference, but I'm only using a 15' cable so a DI may not be needed.

This was going to be my suggestion as well. Maybe go as far as to take a recording of the capture that sounds good on the near fields and play it back through the PA.

TBH I interpreted the fact that the caps sound good on nearfields is a signal that the caps may have too much full range content for live use. My Tonex and Helix studio patches do not translate live. I have separate versions where I’m low passing as low as 4.5kHz in some cases. Those caps sound dull and dark on my nearfields.

I'm going to try that next. I think that is most of the problem, people want to blame the PA but it's not the issue, it's as good as any other prosumer gear. I might need to make some presets solely dedicated to PA work, maybe take some of my favorite captures and use some heavy EQ in the advanced section?

 

[JCW308]

I wish I could agree but so far I don't. Maybe it's just not for me. I also don't know what kind of elaborate systems others are using to accomplish this. I'm talking about this pedal direct to the PA, nothing else involved.

Nothing elaborate here. Just the modeler direct to PA with nothing else.

 

[bucephalus]

Might be semantics, or the pedant in me, but Tonex One isn't a modeller it's a capture player. I run mine direct to pa and also sometimes power amp and cab and sounds great either way. DI captures into cab and full captures into PA. My PA is shit too and still sounds decent.

 

[jay mitchell]

Define "shrill, boxy, and so fake sounding." I've heard lots of prosumer PAs - and quite a few "pro" rigs - to which I would apply those descriptors. Sometimes, the intrinsic character of the speakers is to blame. Other times, it's driver error. If you like how your mic'ed amp sounds through your PA but have issues with how your modeler sounds, it behooves you to identify and quantify the differences. Once you've managed that, you'll have a stable starting point from which to proceed.