High cuts required when running a modeler into guitar speakers?

[Jarick]

Me on May 15th:
"I would never buy a tube amp because I'd need to have an attenuator/reactive load to play at home and the whole thing is a waste of money when I already have an Axe FX 3."



Me, two weeks later:
"I'm running my tube amp through my reactive load into the Axe FX 3."



Granted, the HT-5 and Torpedo Captor 8 were a combined $400.

 

[Jarick]

Oh hey I just realized I can do a wet/dry/wet rig with this too...

 

[JT]

Me on May 15th:
"I would never buy a tube amp because I'd need to have an attenuator/reactive load to play at home and the whole thing is a waste of money when I already have an Axe FX 3."



Me, two weeks later:
"I'm running my tube amp through my reactive load into the Axe FX 3."



Granted, the HT-5 and Torpedo Captor 8 were a combined $400.

 

[Jarick]

I'm taking measurements right now and this is FASCINATING. New thread incoming with graphs and everything.

 

[York Audio]

I think the tweak-ability of modelers can be a blessing and a curse. We can manipulate the tone any way we want with EQs and low/high cuts to get things sitting the way we want, but it tends to bring us further away from accuracy and authenticity and we get surprised when we hear something authentic.

I’ve got 16 tube heads in my amp rack (Marshalls, Matchless, Mesa, Orange, Soldano, Diezel, Custom Audio Amplifiers, etc.) and they all have a considerable amount of sizzle through a real cab in the room aside from the 70’s Orange that probably starts to roll off around 8k or so. So when I hear that some players cut their highs considerably, I wonder if they’d even like the sound of the real amp and cab they’re using replicating with their modelers. A/B’ing my Axe-Fx III with an IR vs my ‘77 Marshall JMP going through a real cab mic’ed up is indistinguishable in a blind test. If I cut the highs on the Fractal to 8k, it would be very obvious to pick out the real amp from the model.

All that to say, sizzle isn’t bad… it just means the modeling is closer to accurately replicating the real thing. Turn your treble and presence knobs to zero and the tone will be unusably dark, so edge them up and tweak them to get the top end response you want without using a high cut. You’ll get a more authentic end result with top end air that gives your tone nice energy and width that will sit more naturally in the mix.

 

[Jarick]

I think the tweak-ability of modelers can be a blessing and a curse. We can manipulate the tone any way we want with EQs and low/high cuts to get things sitting the way we want, but it tends to bring us further away from accuracy and authenticity and we get surprised when we hear something authentic.

I’ve got 16 tube heads in my amp rack (Marshalls, Matchless, Mesa, Orange, Soldano, Diezel, Custom Audio Amplifiers, etc.) and they all have a considerable amount of sizzle through a real cab in the room aside from the 70’s Orange that probably starts to roll off around 8k or so. So when I hear that some players cut their highs considerably, I wonder if they’d even like the sound of the real amp and cab they’re using replicating with their modelers. A/B’ing my Axe-Fx III with an IR vs my ‘77 Marshall JMP going through a real cab mic’ed up is indistinguishable in a blind test. If I cut the highs on the Fractal to 8k, it would be very obvious to pick out the real amp from the model.

All that to say, sizzle isn’t bad… it just means the modeling is closer to accurately replicating the real thing. Turn your treble and presence knobs to zero and the tone will be unusably dark, so edge them up and tweak them to get the top end response you want without using a high cut. You’ll get a more authentic end result with top end air that gives your tone nice energy and width that will sit more naturally in the mix.

What amp are you using when you A/B the Axe 3 vs the real deal through the same cab?

 

[York Audio]

What amp are you using when you A/B the Axe 3 vs the real deal through the same cab?

In the example I gave, I used the Brit 800 model to match my JMP. I’ve also matched a Soldano with the Solo 100 Lead model, a Bogner Ecstasy with the Euro Blue model, and a Mesa Mark IV with the USA Lead Mid Gain model to name a few. Some of the amp models aren’t as close to my real amps, but that can come down to the difference between two physical amps.

I need to match my Matchless, Vox, and Twin at some point for kicks, but I have a feeling they’ll be close too. Just remember that the Presence knob on Fractal models don’t have an authentic taper, so dial that knob in by ear rather than matching a specific setting.

 

[Jarick]

In the example I gave, I used the Brit 800 model to match my JMP. I’ve also matched a Soldano with the Solo 100 Lead model, a Bogner Ecstasy with the Euro Blue model, and a Mesa Mark IV with the USA Lead Mid Gain model to name a few. Some of the amp models aren’t as close to my real amps, but that can come down to the difference between two physical amps.

I need to match my Matchless, Vox, and Twin at some point for kicks, but I have a feeling they’ll be close too. Just remember that the Presence knob on Fractal models don’t have an authentic taper, so dial that knob in by ear rather than matching a specific setting.

Are you running the Fractal through say an effects loop on those amps to compare them?

 

[York Audio]

Are you running the Fractal through say an effects loop on those amps to compare them?

No, running the Axe through an amp’s effects loop colors the sound. I mic up a cab, dial in my amp, shoot the IR, and use the IR with the Fractal. I start by mirroring amp settings and then make small adjustments on the Fractal until it matches up. I rarely use any advanced parameters and can normally get the job done just by using the basic amp controls.

A person’s success or frustration with a modeler tends to come down to their listening source/environment. If you’re listening in an untreated room with lots of hard surfaces, you’ll get some nasty reflections that can enhance harshness and make it difficult to get solid low end.

 

[DieSchmalle]

Still interested in seeing a Katana MKII power amp frequency response measurement. Anyone?

 

[Jarick]

Still interested in seeing a Katana MKII power amp frequency response measurement. Anyone?

Check my other post about tube vs solid state amps. I measured it there.

 

[DieSchmalle]

Check my other post about tube vs solid state amps. I measured it there.

Ah ok, thanks! Looks like the Katana's power amp compensates for open back low end loss - interesting. And it adds a little presence - so people's observations of it being a bit bright are validated.

Obviously the speaker has it's part in the equation, too.

 

[Bob Zaod]

I seriously must have major high end hearing loss. I always leave every bit of the sizzle. I do sometimes trim the lows depending on the room we are in?

May want to get tested. I recently did and my high end limit is around 9k. I think they even have phone apps for it.

 

[0XI0]

it's always a safe bet to high cut heavy then high shelf or wide bell back in just what you need. no such thing as a bad dark tone, the best tones are full (dark) and clear (2k-4k). in modeling a lot of developers don't filter enough at each stage internally and it compounds into a high end harmonic wash out that you can't just high cut out, it's a harmonic component of the distortion at that point not a physical limitation of paper. fractal high treble is great for that, basically a courtesy filter between preamp and power amp, but doesn't do any good for a phase inverter that's having a stroke. idk where fractal has the PI in relation to output EQ but pre-pa output EQ 4db cut @ 8k is where things get more natural for me

 

[pipelineaudio]

some of those classic tones way back in the day had a LOT of treble into even greenbacks...Watch some old 80's interviews and its pretty crazy how much 6-8k stuff is in there

 

[ragingplatypi]

some of those classic tones way back in the day had a LOT of treble into even greenbacks...Watch some old 80's interviews and its pretty crazy how much 6-8k stuff is in there

Not to mention the bass being pulled out in a final mix (which sometimes can make the guitar sound bigger) - I’m thinking Carry On My Wayward Son.