High cuts required when running a modeler into guitar speakers?

[Jarick]

I've been running all my amp modelers through the Power Amp In of the Boss Katana Artist Mk2 and finding that all of them require a lot more high cuts than I expected. Especially with higher gain tones, they all need cuts around 6-8k like I was going direct to "FRFR"'s, but I'm going to a high watt Greenback style speaker. It's surprising because the amp is kind of dark sounding when running into the front of it, and there's very little harshness to speak of normally.

I'm curious if anyone else is finding the same thing?

For the record, I've tried this with HX Stomp, Axe FX 3, and today running Tonex and NDSP plugins. If I include the cab modeling, it's dark and bassy (kind of as expected), but if I turn off the cab modeling I need to chop off the highs around 6-8k.

 

[JiveTurkey]

I seriously must have major high end hearing loss. I always leave every bit of the sizzle. I do sometimes trim the lows depending on the room we are in?

 

[mbenigni]

I've always felt this way, and eventually just wrote it off as, "I guess I don't know/ remember what the real amps sound like..."

But yeah, if I'm being honest, I'd say most modelers make output that's significantly brighter than e.g. an actual amp head. To the point where I'm sometimes happier running [amp model -> EQ/cab sim/IR -> power amp -> speaker cabinet] than [amp model -> power amp -> speaker cabinet] as god/ product vendor intended. This should be redundant and self-defeating, but...

 

[Jarick]

I seriously must have major high end hearing loss. I always leave every bit of the sizzle. I do sometimes trim the lows depending on the room we are in?

I actually put my amp up on a pair of yoga blocks because the low end coupling was really bumping the bass, which helped.

This really came to light today because I was thinking of picking up a Tonex pedal, then decided to try the plugin first through my interface line out. It works fine (tiny bit of latency) but the tone was really dark with cabs on and way too bright with cabs off.

Then tried the NDSP Henson plugin, and same thing. Better with cabs on but a little dark, and with cabs off sounded way too harsh and bright. I went to the graphic EQ and pulled the 16k slider down all the way, not much difference. Pulled the 8k slider down all the way and much better, a little dark so I went about 2/3. Then pulled the 4k slider down a few dB and it sounded quite good. But I essentially recreated a high cut at about 8k.

 

[Jarick]

I've always felt this way, and eventually just wrote it off as, "I guess I don't know/ remember what the real amps sound like..."

But yeah, if I'm being honest, I'd say most modelers make output that's significantly brighter than e.g. an actual amp head. To the point where I'm sometimes happier running [amp model -> EQ/cab sim/IR -> power amp -> speaker cabinet] than [amp model -> power amp -> speaker cabinet] as god/ product vendor intended. This should be redundant and self-defeating, but...

Yes! That's kind of how I feel. I don't have any tube amps anymore but if I use the Katana like normal it sounds pretty much fine (sometimes I shave off the high end with high gain).

 

[mbenigni]

Yes! That's kind of how I feel. I don't have any tube amps anymore but if I use the Katana like normal it sounds pretty much fine (sometimes I shave off the high end with high gain).

The Katana as a whole probably has lots of EQ trickery going on in the preamp - tuned specifically for that amp - so all bets are off. But yes, in general, I often wind up thinking that any given amp model (or preamp model) isn't really as equivalent to the IRL hardware as the product vendors would have us believe. They can sound great, of course, but they have to be used differently. (This was even worse - much worse - 10, 20 years ago, which always disappointed/ frustrated my nerdy "mathematically equivalent" ideals. Now I just apply whatever EQ/ whatever to get it done.)

As for ToneX being too dark with cab sim on, too bright without... ToneX gonna ToneX? Probably just bad captures (or "models" grr). Some of them just sound like poop.

 

[Jarick]

The Katana as a whole probably has lots of EQ trickery going on in the preamp - tuned specifically for that amp - so all bets are off. But yes, in general, I often wind up thinking that any given amp model (or preamp model) isn't really as equivalent to the IRL hardware as the product vendors would have us believe. They can sound great, of course, but they have to be used differently. (This was even worse - much worse - 10, 20 years ago, which always disappointed/ frustrated my nerdy "mathematically equivalent" ideals. Now I just apply whatever EQ/ whatever to get it done.)

As for ToneX being too dark with cab sim on, too bright without... ToneX gonna ToneX? Probably just bad captures (or "models" grr). Some of them just sound like poop.

I honestly haven't used Tonex since I bought it a couple months ago. It was super clunky and then I forgot about it. It sounded good although it didn't respond well to volume knob changes, but then again I'm running this Jazzmaster with 1M pots which screws everything up.

I had the same kind of thing with the Katana 50 and Catalyst 60 I had before, FWIW.

 

[DrewJD82]

No hi cuts for me going into regular cabs, but like JT said, I often have to suck a lot of low end out, especially last week going into a pair of Orange 2x12’s.

I’ve never paid attention to the speaker in the Katana and just kind of assumed it was something like the Line 6 Flextone stuff where it was a "FRFR"-ish speaker?

 

[ejecta]

I seriously must have major high end hearing loss. I always leave every bit of the sizzle. I do sometimes trim the lows depending on the room we are in?

Me as well for the most part and I find that if I don’t like the top end it’s just better to find another IR.

 

[sleewell]

I think that guitar speakers are meant to be able to handle it without hi cuts.

I think you notice that you need them more when going into a studio monitor or "FRFR".

 

[Jarick]

No hi cuts for me going into regular cabs, but like JT said, I often have to suck a lot of low end out, especially last week going into a pair of Orange 2x12’s.

I’ve never paid attention to the speaker in the Katana and just kind of assumed it was something like the Line 6 Flextone stuff where it was a "FRFR"-ish speaker?

It's Boss' version of a high powered Greenback, not "FRFR" at all.

With the Axe 3 right now, running a 5k high cut at 12 db/octave slope. So pretty aggressive.

 

[Mongillo19]

No hi cuts for me going into regular cabs, but like JT said, I often have to suck a lot of low end out, especially last week going into a pair of Orange 2x12’s.

What kind of low cuts we talking? I usually do around 100 with the 12db slope on the Axe Fx

 

[Blix]

When I gigged with the Helix using a Fender Blues Deluxe as a power amp for a 4x12, I had to set the hi-cut to around 6-7k.
Not tried the Axe with power amp/cab yet.

 

[la szum]

I can't imagine not using Hi and Lo Cuts on any modeling platform---even into speakers/cabs.

If there is a way to not make those digital artificats sneak through it is by NOT using aggressive
HI Cuts.

I was checking out some artist presets from the Gift Of Tone series Fractal did and man some
of them have super aggressive Hi Cuts (down into the 5K region). I am just going to assume Pros
know Pro Level shit more than me.

 

[laxu]

Never used them if cab sims are off.

 

[Alex Kenivel]

I have the high cut engaged on the Katana's Parametric EQ for when I run into the FX Return. Using a Creamback. The stock Katana speaker was more trebly. Running straight into the Power amp input bypasses the EQ and sounds okay but I like to lop it off. It's been a while since I've used it, have been running my MT15 into Greenbacks and can get pretty toppy too.

 

[Byrdman]

I actually put my amp up on a pair of yoga blocks because the low end coupling was really bumping the bass, which helped.

This really came to light today because I was thinking of picking up a Tonex pedal, then decided to try the plugin first through my interface line out. It works fine (tiny bit of latency) but the tone was really dark with cabs on and way too bright with cabs off.

Then tried the NDSP Henson plugin, and same thing. Better with cabs on but a little dark, and with cabs off sounded way too harsh and bright. I went to the graphic EQ and pulled the 16k slider down all the way, not much difference. Pulled the 8k slider down all the way and much better, a little dark so I went about 2/3. Then pulled the 4k slider down a few dB and it sounded quite good. But I essentially recreated a high cut at about 8k.

I had the same experience with my Catalyst 200 2x12 amp using Tonex CS(free version). With cabs off it sounded "tinney" if that's a word. With cabs on many of the captures sounded dark, so I used the bridge pickup the most to brighten it back up a little.

Also like @mbenigni said, there were a lot of captures that just sounded like crap through my gear, even some of the favorites and/or most downloaded. I assumed some of those captures probably sounded good through their DAW & monitors but didnt quite do it for me through a real amp.

BTW, I'm not getting that as much and its easy to deal with on my Stomp XL so far.

Another thing I wanted to add is that turning up/down the Presence a little on my amp helped with brightness/darkness too.

 

[TubeStack]

I found the Power Amp In on my Katana 100 head to have hyped highs and lows. Switching to an ISP Stealth Pro was almost boring sounding at first, until I realized it was actually more neutral, with less of Katana "enhancement" (insert Farley meme).

 

[Boudoir Guitar]

I seriously must have major high end hearing loss. I always leave every bit of the sizzle. I do sometimes trim the lows depending on the room we are in?

For live use, this is absolutely the way.

Non-live uses through guitar cab have never felt the need at all unless I had the cab up off the floor and I was sitting in The Beam.

"FRFR" non-live - With Fractal using their stock IRs, I feel like there are loads of options that sound great to me with no hi cut; Helix I am still doing a bit of a hi cut in the 6-8k range but nothing terribly surgical and can often leave it out if I'm playing/mixing within a mix.

 

[James Freeman]

No.