High cuts required when running a modeler into guitar speakers?

[Baba]

I found the Power Amp In on my Katana 100 head to have hyped highs and lows. Switching to an ISP Stealth Pro was almost boring sounding at first, until I realized it was actually more neutral, with less of Katana "enhancement" (insert Farley meme).

I'd be willing to bet this is what is happening.

I use a tube amp live, through a cab AND directly out, into IEMs, and lately, I've been telling the engineers to cut me at 6k in my IEMs, sounds awesome and matches the sound of my cab much more.

 

[Elric]

No hi cuts for me going into regular cabs, but like JT said, I often have to suck a lot of low end out, especially last week going into a pair of Orange 2x12’s.

Similar experience with real cabs. I sometimes bump the high end even. I would not take the Kat power amp input result as representative or power amp-> cab in the general case. You'd probably need to compare a bit that thing is tweaked for a specific application and input.

Also, I always expect to redial when changing the signal chain. I would not expect your presets to just translate without the cab enabled.

 

[DieSchmalle]

Someone please measure the frequency response of the Katana's power amp.
Someone please make an IR of the Katana standing on the floor and provide mic'ing info (mic, positioning).

These data points would make us able to answer the OP more objectively.

 

[Jarick]

Someone please measure the frequency response of the Katana's power amp.
Someone please make an IR of the Katana standing on the floor and provide mic'ing info (mic, positioning).

These data points would make us able to answer the OP more objectively.

Would be nice but I don't have access to the equipment needed to measure everything.

Next week I'll have a Blackstar HT-5 head coming in and can test the power amp of that so see if there's a difference.

I did try the Katana power amp in vs the effects return vs the front panel in "acoustic" mode and there's not a big difference across them sonically from what I can tell. The effects return lets you run things like global EQ, effects, presence knob, etc. Acoustic mode lets you use the tone stack EQ.

 

[Whizzinby]

Never

 

[SillyOctpuss]

I've never felt the need for hi cuts when running my Helix through my JVMs power amp input.

 

[Alex Kenivel]

The few budget amps' power sections Ive played a Helix into needed high cuts: Katana, some Crate half stack (can't remember if tube or not), fender combos. Not at all with the Yammy PA amp into the 2x12 Greeny cab. Not at all with Preamps into tube power amps.

Pod HD into SS amps into cabs sounded best with cab sims on

 

[ragingplatypi]

I’ve noticed issues with the high and low end that have been mentioned. I know this is sacrilege to a lot of folks here, but I found turning on the speaker modeling even when I go into a guitar amp gets me where I need to go.

I used to just keep that dirty secret to myself, but John Nathan Cordy did a video a little while back showing that he does the same thing. So I guess I’m not totally insane.

 

[gearJunkie]

I’ve noticed issues with the high and low end that have been mentioned. I know this is sacrilege to a lot of folks here, but I found turning on the speaker modeling even when I go into a guitar amp gets me where I need to go.

If it sounds good, it is good.

 

[Jarick]

Experimented with running guitar straight into the power amp return and it certainly didn’t sound bright to me. Granted there’s no preamp. I ran drive less into it and it didn’t sound fizzy or bright at all. Actually kind of dark.

 

[Will Chen]

Given there are "cab resonance options" and series/parallel options for the loop in the Katana, my guess is going into the return isn't after all the DSP and there is some sort of EQ/processing happening post loop. This was a similar issue with the old Tech 21 Trademark 60, their analog cab modeling came after the loop in the circuit. Unless you know the schematic, an amp's loop return isn't guaranteed to be clean power amp to speaker.

 

[DieSchmalle]

Given there are "cab resonance options" and series/parallel options for the loop in the Katana, my guess is going into the return isn't after all the DSP and there is some sort of EQ/processing happening post loop. This was a similar issue with the old Tech 21 Trademark 60, their analog cab modeling came after the loop in the circuit. Unless you know the schematic, an amp's loop return isn't guaranteed to be clean power amp to speaker.

The Katana 100 MkII has an fx return before the internal fx and a dedicated post fx power amp in.

 

[Will Chen]

The Katana 100 MkII has an fx return before the internal fx and a dedicated post fx power amp in.

Quick google of "Katana too bright" returns a potential issue here as well.

 

[Elric]

Given there are "cab resonance options" and series/parallel options for the loop in the Katana, my guess is going into the return isn't after all the DSP and there is some sort of EQ/processing happening post loop. This was a similar issue with the old Tech 21 Trademark 60, their analog cab modeling came after the loop in the circuit. Unless you know the schematic, an amp's loop return isn't guaranteed to be clean power amp to speaker.

Yeah. loops can be tricky... signal level, tone suck, noise, impedance mismatches, etc. A lot of them require messing around to get straight and some are inherently flawed.

 

[Jarick]

Quick google of "Katana too bright" returns a potential issue here as well.

Our very own @2112 mentioned though it was similar to running through his tube power amp, somewhere I think.

I’ll have another amp to compare against this week though.

 

[Alex Kenivel]

FWIW I've just run some pink noise into both the FX Return on a blank katana preset (everything disabled, preamp volume at 0) and into the Power Amp Input, and recorded my speaker with a measurement mic to see what the difference was.

An interesting little mountain range, no? Doesn't make an extreme difference which one you use if you ask me, but the ability to tailor one over the other is no contest for me. After having not played my Katana for a few months I'm finding it to still be a versatile little amp

 

[Coalface1971]

I’ve noticed issues with the high and low end that have been mentioned. I know this is sacrilege to a lot of folks here, but I found turning on the speaker modeling even when I go into a guitar amp gets me where I need to go.

I used to just keep that dirty secret to myself, but John Nathan Cordy did a video a little while back showing that he does the same thing. So I guess I’m not totally insane.

Agree totally. Have to say, I'm a little confused regarding what has been talked about in the thread.

Have used modeling since I got a Johnson J-Station in ~ 2001. Still got it. It was the done thing to turn off the cab simulation if running into a normal guitar amp (I mean FX return, valve or other guitar range power amp).

Reason was obvious - running a simulation of a guitar poweramp section/speaker/cab, into a "real" guitar poweramp/speaker/cab combination, wouldn't make any sense.

Same with the Fractal or any other modeling gear I've had. Into "real" guitar amp and cabs, cab sims get switched off. The modeler is just a preamp.

"FRFR", recording media, PA etc - cab sims for sure.

You wouldn't put a cab sim/IR on a mic'ed guitar cab, would you? Not trying to start a fight, but this doesn't make sense to me.

 

[SillyOctpuss]

You wouldn't put a cab sim/IR on a mic'ed guitar cab, would you? Not trying to start a fight, but this doesn't make sense to me.

It doesn't really need to make sense though. Some people have tried it and prefer leaving the IR on. I don't use IRs into the power amp on my jvm but I have a friend who uses them with the return on his Katalyst. If he prefers it then I don't see the problem.

 

[Jarick]

Decided to answer the question myself, and ordered a used Torpedo Captor. That's going to let me measure the Katana power section, as well as use with the incoming Blackstar HT-5 for attenuation or getting a direct signal.

So by next weekend I should be able to answer a lot of questions:

• Is the Katana a flat power amp or colored?
• What's the sonic difference between the Katana power amp, effects loop return, or front panel?
• What's the difference between the Katana power amp (solid state) and Blackstar power amp (tube)?
• Are high cuts required for modelers when running into a speaker cabinet?
• What are the sonic differences between modelers (Fractal, Line 6, Kemper)?

 

[jellodog]

@Jarick Won't the Captor itself change the response of the power amp though? It's got it's own impedance curve which will be slightly different to running the cab. So you won't be seeing exactly the same high end behaviour as when there's a speaker attached ?