Helix Talk

[Sascha Franck]

Just adding a monochrome display mode to the existing display is unlikely to help when the issue is likely things like viewing angles, polarization and light output of the LCD. More light output = higher power use and more expensive display.

Well, doesn't even have to be a monochrome mode. I have compared the Floor and the LT directly under the same bright, diffuse lightning conditions - the winner of that comparison when it came to proper visibility has been the LT's "sorry I have no scribble strips but here's 8 large squares for you" mode, which doesn't exist on the Floor.

The design of e.g the BOSS monochrome LCD can be different to allow it to perform better in outdoor situations.

The Boss GT-1000 display is pretty bad, to be honest. But it's still easier to decipher than the Stomp's display.

From what I remember when I had the FM3, QC and Helix Floor...in summer indoor conditions it was actually the Helix that had the best performing screen for visibility. QC had worse viewing angles, FM3 had way worse black levels. Axe-Fx 3 display was a lot better but I never compared it to anything but the FM3.

Apart from the HX Floor/Stomp I have only ever seen the QC on an outdoor stage (no direct comparison, though) and it seemed to be doing sort of well.

Anyhow, seriously, in case the display is of no value anymore, at least the switch LEDs should be better. And that's the case for pretty much all competitors.
I have a picture somewhere, showing my Floor vs. a TC Helicon. The Helicon has comparable LED rings and is visible just fine whereas my Floor doesn't even seem to be switched on.
It's so bad that in that particular summer where I had plenty of daylight outdoor gigs, I went to "just snapshots" instead of using my preferred "4 snaps, 4 stomps" mode, simply because with snapshots I only need to remember which was doing what, whereas with the switches I always needed to know whether they were on or off. At the end of that sommer my liason with the Floor ended (not just because of the visibility issues but they have been a large part of the reasons).

Whatever, I don't get it how even a cheap smartphone outperforms pretty much all modeler displays under bright light conditions. I may try to take a comparison picture later on.

 

[mikah912]

Well, doesn't even have to be a monochrome mode. I have compared the Floor and the LT directly under the same bright, diffuse lightning conditions - the winner of that comparison when it came to proper visibility has been the LT's "sorry I have no scribble strips but here's 8 large squares for you" mode, which doesn't exist on the Floor.



The Boss GT-1000 display is pretty bad, to be honest. But it's still easier to decipher than the Stomp's display.



Apart from the HX Floor/Stomp I have only ever seen the QC on an outdoor stage (no direct comparison, though) and it seemed to be doing sort of well.

Anyhow, seriously, in case the display is of no value anymore, at least the switch LEDs should be better. And that's the case for pretty much all competitors.
I have a picture somewhere, showing my Floor vs. a TC Helicon. The Helicon has comparable LED rings and is visible just fine whereas my Floor doesn't even seem to be switched on.
It's so bad that in that particular summer where I had plenty of daylight outdoor gigs, I went to "just snapshots" instead of using my preferred "4 snaps, 4 stomps" mode, simply because with snapshots I only need to remember which was doing what, whereas with the switches I always needed to know whether they were on or off. At the end of that sommer my liason with the Floor ended (not just because of the visibility issues but they have been a large part of the reasons).

Whatever, I don't get it how even a cheap smartphone outperforms pretty much all modeler displays under bright light conditions. I may try to take a comparison picture later on.

I Googled something or other about external sun shielding solutions and came across the first time you observed this about Helix.....from 2020?!

No disrespect, but how have you not just bought a CEBA sun shield or moved off this hardware by now? I just don't see the point in spending 5 years with the solution that has such a sticking point for you.

 

[Sascha Franck]

I Googled something or other about external sun shielding solutions and came across the first time you observed this about Helix.....from 2020?!

The first reference must be even older, but it might've gotten deleted from TOP way back.

No disrespect, but how have you not just bought a CEBA sun shield

a) They don't really work. And if there's any person on earth I won't support, it's gotta be Chad Boston.
b) I've built one myself. Still didn't really work (because it can't, under diffuse lightning conditions).

or moved off this hardware by now?

See above, it's been one of the reasons why I sold the Floor. I kept the Stomp because it's a fantastic unit and there's still pretty much nothing like it on the marked. But as I only used it as a delay/reverb unit on my last big board, the limitations didn't get into the way too much. The last gig was the first outdoor gig with it - and it likely will be the last one (too bad, really).

I just don't see the point in spending 5 years with the solution that has such a sticking point for you.

See above. Back then I used the Floor and I got rid of it shortly after.

I was really only reviving the issue because of my first Stomp outdoor gig and because the folks at L6 could possibly think about doing something about the situation when it comes to future units. But apparently they think it's all just fine.

 

[mikah912]

@Sascha Franck DI explained Line 6's reasoning at length, and I believe it's not the first time. I just don't see a single anecdotal argument refuting the oodles of product development data he's gotten from user interaction, surveys, test measurements, and the like.

If a sun shield won't solve your problem, then just get a MIDI controller with the sort of display you like and have it handle your changes.

 

[JiveTurkey]

I gave up not memorizing what my footswitches do a long time ago. So there's that problem solved. I am not going back to a GT1000 and I SURE as f am not giving Chad Boston or Verytech any of my money. Barf.

 

[Sascha Franck]

@Sascha Franck DI explained Line 6's reasoning at length, and I believe it's not the first time. I just don't see a single anecdotal argument refuting the oodles of product development data he's gotten from user interaction, surveys, test measurements, and the like.

So, you think they like bad visibility?
And why did they as well cheap out on the LED rings? If at least these were proper, it'd help a great deal.

I gave up not memorizing what my footswitches do a long time ago.

It's not about memorizing at all. It's about seeing whether they're on or off. Would you buy a drive pedal with no on/off indicator?

 

[mikah912]

I gave up not memorizing what my footswitches do a long time ago. So there's that problem solved. I am not going back to a GT1000 and I SURE as f am not giving Chad Boston or Verytech any of my money. Barf.

Yeah, I have no idea how anyone has time to read strips or scroll through stuff during a performance. I've never seen it make sense in any way that doesn't involve muscle memory and repetition of your layouts so you can only think of what you're playing in the moment.

 

[JiveTurkey]

So, you think they like bad visibility?
And why did they as well cheap out on the LED rings? If at least these were proper, it'd help a great deal.



It's not about memorizing at all. It's about seeing whether they're on or off. Would you buy a drive pedal with no on/off indicator?

I get what you are saying. I haven't used a Helix in a long time though so can't comment on whether it was a thing for me?

 

[mikah912]

So, you think they like bad visibility?
And why did they as well cheap out on the LED rings? If at least these were proper, it'd help a great deal.



It's not about memorizing at all. It's about seeing whether they're on or off. Would you buy a drive pedal with no on/off indicator?

Bad visibility in your specific use case versus great visibility in virtually every other use case.

Your point about on/off states is taken, but that's why I use Snapshots. If you know by muscle memory what each switch in a row does and you laid them out in a linear fashion, you're never lost.

 

[Sascha Franck]

Bad visibility in your specific use case versus great visibility in virtually every other use case.

It's got zero to do with a personal use case but simply with outdoor performance.
Besides, with bright stage light, it's often getting quite critical as well.

Your point about on/off states is taken, but that's why I use Snapshots. If you know by muscle memory what each switch in a row does and you laid them out in a linear fashion, you're never lost.

I started using snapshots only. But I wanted to use a mixture and my 4/4 setup was vastly more flexible, too. Just that the invisible LEDs forced me to give up on it on outdoor gigs.

 

[mikah912]

It's got zero to do with a personal use case but simply with outdoor performance.
Besides, with bright stage light, it's often getting quite critical as well.




I started using snapshots only. But I wanted to use a mixture and my 4/4 setup was vastly more flexible, too. Just that the invisible LEDs forced me to give up on it on outdoor gigs.

So why not just find a MIDI controller with the display/lights you want and pair it with your Helix?

EDIT: To be clear, I and many other users have used Helix at outdoor performances. You can't make a blanket statement that the display is not at all usable outdoors.

 

[pablo retamal]

Exactly, today you can program the entire show without having to interact with your unit at all, On the other hand, avoiding direct exposure to the sun's rays is a universal precaution for electronic devices!

 

[Sascha Franck]

So why not just find a MIDI controller with the display/lights you want and pair it with your Helix?

Seriously, when using such a large unit with such an amount of switches, the last thing that should be required is an additional MIDI controller.

EDIT: To be clear, I and many other users have used Helix at outdoor performances. You can't make a blanket statement that the display is not at all usable outdoors.

Yes I can. See the picture I posted. It's not even remotely visible. Which almost scientifically qualifies as "display not usable outdoors". Whether you need the display is an entirely different thing, but in itself, it's not usable.

 

[Sascha Franck]

Exactly, today you can program the entire show without having to interact with your unit at all

No. I'm often playing subbing gigs. There's no way to preprogram anything (and fwiw, that's one of the other main reasons why I switched to the GT-1000).

On the other hand, avoiding direct exposure to the sun's rays is a universal precaution for electronic devices!

It's not an issue over here at this time of the year. It was like 20°C.

 

[mikah912]

Seriously, when using such a large unit with such an amount of switches, the last thing that should be required is an additional MIDI controller.



Yes I can. See the picture I posted. It's not even remotely visible. Which almost scientifically qualifies as "display not usable outdoors". Whether you need the display is an entirely different thing, but in itself, it's not usable.

See the picture you posted here in 2020: https://line6.com/support/topic/56681-helix-in-daylight-what-is-everybody-doing/page/3/

Looks more than remotely visible and usable to me.

 

[Sascha Franck]

Looks more than remotely visible and usable to me.

What? You can't see ANYTHING on the display. Add to this that the picture was taken straight above the unit, things got way worse in any typical playing condition. But hey, feel free to tell me the patch name...

 

[mikah912]

What? You can't see ANYTHING on the display. Add to this that the picture was taken straight above the unit, things got way worse in any typical playing condition. But hey, feel free to tell me the patch name...

Something with 2204. Can't read the first part due to how low-res the image is. It's preset 5A. Last pedal enabled in the top row is Teemah! First one is the 6 Switch Looper. Third is the Scream 808.

Were I actually there or if you didn't create this with a potato cam, I'd be able to read it all.

 

[Sascha Franck]

Something with 2204. Can't read the first part due to how low-res the image is. It's preset 5A. Last pedal enabled in the top row is Teemah! First one is the 6 Switch Looper. Third is the Scream 808.

Were I actually there or if you didn't create this with a potato cam, I'd be able to read it all.

You can of course somehow decipher some things. But that's because you have all the time in the world. When playing, you don't.

Besides, as said, this is a picture almost in favour of the Floor. At a flatter angle, things get way worse.

 

[mikah912]

You can of course somehow decipher some things. But that's because you have all the time in the world. When playing, you don't.

Besides, as said, this is a picture almost in favour of the Floor. At a flatter angle, things get way worse.

Moving ye olde goalposts, eh?

We went from "it's absolutely unreadable in sunlight" to "Ok, sure you quickly read some stuff from a malfunctioning Boost Mobile free Android phone cam pic, but it would be harder to do so live!" pretty quickly.

"Deciphering" absolutely would be a distraction when playing in real-time. So would reading it in perfect clarity. That's why I lay my snapshots/scenes in an identical fashion across presets.

Alternately, you could automate your changes with MIDI and any decent laptop.

Or you could buy a cheap controller just to bolster your outdoor gig use cases while the displays you paid for kill it in the darkened indoor stages/studios they were designed for - which happens to be how most live music is performed pretty much anywhere.

Not sure why you're acting like the last is such a burden that you shouldn't have to deal with after having paid $1500+. It's a super common use case to keep these things out of sight just to keep them from meeting an early demise due to stage mishaps like inadvertent stomps on the displays, beer spills and exposure to sudden inclement weather. Major acts using Fractal, Helix and Quad Cortex products almost always keep them racked and add on control capabilities on their own dime.