Helix JCM800 2203 Request Thread (FW 3.70 new Brit 2203)!

Bob Zaod said:
I tried it and gave it a fair chance. For me the Helix LT is a superior unit overall. Even missing a proper 2203 and all.
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I've been inches away from buying an FM9 several times, out of curiosity, but every time I think about the utility of it vs. my Helix Floor, I realize it'll just be another piece of gear that only gets pulled out once in a while. That's because I use the mic input on my Helix all the time, and it works great for setting up a very usable vocal chain while I also run acoustic or electric guitar through it. My Helix is quite literally my do-it-all box for all of my audio needs, at least outside of my computer and DAW.

I am 110% sure the Fractal stuff is fantastic. But unless we're strictly talking modeling accuracy (which is a topic of debate), I can't think of anything I'd gain with the Fractal gear. And I know for sure I would miss the onboard UI of my Helix. My laziness actually has me reaching over and adjusting things on the hardware rather than double-clicking and waiting for HX Edit to launch, and that is quite a testament to how good the onboard UI is.
 
Bob Zaod said:
I tried it and gave it a fair chance. For me the Helix LT is a superior unit overall. Even missing a proper 2203 and all.
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My experience precisely!

Don't get me wrong, I do believe that the AxeFX3 is the gold standard in modelers, but based on my FM3/FM9 experiences, I know that the Helix sounds just as good and I vastly prefer the workflow.

It is also a lot more fun to play around with, *in my opinion*.
 
Foxmeister said:
My experience precisely!

Don't get me wrong, I do believe that the AxeFX3 is the gold standard in modelers, but based on my FM3/FM9 experiences, I know that the Helix sounds just as good and I vastly prefer the workflow.

It is also a lot more fun to play around with, *in my opinion*.
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In addition to @SwirlyMaple 's remark about vocal chain the Helix also has amazing bass amps, cabs and FX. Don't know any modeler that has this much bass stuff.
 
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Foxmeister said:
My experience precisely!

Don't get me wrong, I do believe that the AxeFX3 is the gold standard in modelers, but based on my FM3/FM9 experiences, I know that the Helix sounds just as good and I vastly prefer the workflow.

It is also a lot more fun to play around with, *in my opinion*.
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For me, having owned both and sticking with Fractal, it's two experiences for workflow.

If I work with the onboard user interface, Helix all the way. If I use the editor software, Axe-Edit all the way. My Axe-Fx 3 mostly sits on my desk and the only things that get touched on it are the power switch and output volumes, everything else is Axe-Edit or FC-12 controller.

HX Edit is just...ok. It's not fantastic but it's not terrible either. It's kind of like the onboard user interface on Fractal, you learn to live with it, use it just fine but you'll never love it.

Meanwhile Axe-Edit is generally pleasant to use. It's not perfect, but it's pretty straightforward with only the modifiers and FC controller assignments getting complicated.

Both could really use an integrated interactive manual on their editors. There's so many fx and settings on both that are not immediately understandable or are subtle enough that understanding how they work would help and digging out the manual and finding the relevant section every time is a chore.

I do prefer the Helix drive models. The assortment is better for me with more variety and less variants of the same thing. I generally just avoid using the Drive block on Fractal and use a different amp model or the same amp model with different settings instead. Or use the input boosts which do the same thing as what I'd want from the full Drive block with just less options to deal with.

I feel there's different approach to them where the Helix is like a pedalboard and Fractal is refridgerator rack equivalent for effects. There's nothing wrong with either, it's just a different emphasis on the fx. The Helix effects are more simple to work with at least for me because there's just less parameters, less controls dealing with e.g stereo and panning and so on.

On the flip side things like the ducking features are really nice on Fractal, to me separate ducking delay models are stupid when it could be easily applied to any delay/reverb like Fractal allows.

We focus a ton on the amp/cab stuff here and I don't think those are the real differentiators anymore. While Fractal's modeling is perhaps more accurate and realistic, Helix sounds good too so there is no issue. So does Kemper, Strymon and yes, even the dreaded Quad Cortex. We are firmly in the "do you like how this piece of gear sounds and operates" territory and you will have as many opinions as there's users.

I haven't participated in this whole JCM800 discussion because I don't really care if there's an accurate model of it or not. It's "nice to have" stuff. I'll just use Placater Dirty instead as I like how that sounds for higher gain Marshall tones. There's plenty of models I don't care for on the Fractal too, so I just stick to ones that work for me. Cornford MK50, Mesa Lonestar, Plexi 100, Super Reverb, Morgan AC20...those are my jam. Rectos are the models I avoid the most, I just don't like them even in the real world, despite liking the sounds others get from them.
 
laxu said:
Rectos are the models I avoid the most, I just don't like them even in the real world, despite liking the sounds others get from them.
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Very well said and I only quote the very end because this is exactly how I feel about ORANGE amps or models. I have heard others make them sound great but to my ears they are mud laden junk. It's too bad too because I love the way they look. Something about the gain/distortion that just grates on my ears.
 
It doesn't matter if one personally likes the JCM800 or not, this circuit is part of history and had a huge part in defining the electric guitar sound across many genres of music.
I believe every modeler has to model this amp as accurately as possible in every generation, no excuses.
I don't know what Line 6 were thinking all these years, but they do not and did not have a good model of this amp probably ever, this has to change.

--

Here's a few photos of Metallica in February 84 before recording RTL and before the Boogie era, all 2203 JCM800's and JMP's.
Last photo shows Kirk's live setup from that era; Crybaby -> Boss OD1 -> Boss GE7 -> JCM800's.
First photo with Cliff is Hetfield's side of the stage, all JCM800's, probably boosted with something similar to Kirk's setup.


Cliff 1.jpg
Kirk 2.jpgCliff 2.jpg
Kirk OD1.jpg
 
Bob Zaod said:
Very well said and I only quote the very end because this is exactly how I feel about ORANGE amps or models. I have heard others make them sound great but to my ears they are mud laden junk. It's too bad too because I love the way they look. Something about the gain/distortion that just grates on my ears.
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I like some Orange amps but I can understand that criticism. They just have this very thick sound to them which is sometimes too much and aside from external EQ pedals there's not all that much you can do to get rid of some of the low mids or whatever it is that makes that character.

I enjoy how they sound in a room when playing by yourself but every band I've seen using them has always basically cut off a ton of bass to make them work.

ENGL is another brand that is "I guess that sounds fine, but I have no interest in buying it" and I've tried quite a few of their amps since they were well available over here. Hughes&Kettner to a lesser degree as well but you don't see those modeled anywhere - always too fizzy to me but I bet they would work well in a band mix.

But if I have to name tube amps that I have truly loathed, Peavey Triple XXX and the original Mesa Stiletto come to mind.

Maybe we need a "what amps do you really dislike and why?" thread.
 
James Freeman said:
It doesn't matter if one personally likes the JCM800 or not, this circuit is part of history and had a huge part in defining the electric guitar sound across many genres of music.
I believe every modeler has to model this amp as accurately as possible in every generation, no excuses.
I don't know what Line 6 were thinking all these years, but they do not and did not have a good model of this amp probably ever, this has to change.

--

Here's a few photos of Metallica in February 84 before recording RTL and before the Boogie era, all 2203 JCM800's and JMP's.
Last photo shows Kirk's live setup from that era; Crybaby -> Boss OD1 -> Boss GE7 -> JCM800's.
First photo with Cliff is Hetfield's side of the stage, all JCM800's, probably boosted with something similar to Kirk's setup.


View attachment 8468
View attachment 8469View attachment 8470
View attachment 8471
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7qz1r2.jpg
 
laxu said:
ENGL is another brand that is "I guess that sounds fine, but I have no interest in buying it" and I've tried quite a few of their amps since they were well available over here. Hughes&Kettner to a lesser degree as well but you don't see those modeled anywhere - always too fizzy to me but I bet they would work well in a band mix.
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Yep! The new lead guitar in the cover band I am in uses a Fireball 25 with a 1x12 Friedman cab (sold him the cab) and it's one of the easiest rigs I've ever had to mix in a band. Just melds right in and cuts really good for soloing. Really ties the guitars together nicely.
 
laxu said:
I like some Orange amps but I can understand that criticism. They just have this very thick sound to them which is sometimes too much and aside from external EQ pedals there's not all that much you can do to get rid of some of the low mids or whatever it is that makes that character.
Click to expand...
Bob Zaod said:
Very well said and I only quote the very end because this is exactly how I feel about ORANGE amps or models. I have heard others make them sound great but to my ears they are mud laden junk. It's too bad too because I love the way they look. Something about the gain/distortion that just grates on my ears.
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Rockerverb tip: boost it and lower the gain. *bright cap alert*
 
DieSchmalle said:
Rockerverb tip: boost it and lower the gain. *bright cap alert*
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Which is exactly how you get that super crunchy AC/DC tone, you lower the Gain to about 4 where the 1nF bright cap is very present then slam it with a healthy boost.
Or 80s metal tone for that matter, Gain at 6-7 which still has plenty of bright cap effect and slam with classic OD pedals.

Some more cloud yelling:
The goddam Marshalls in the Helix don't have bright caps, a huge variety of classic rock and metal tones are completely missing from the Helix.
And NO, the goddam Friedman doesn't sound like a Marshall, and it doesn't have the goddam bright cap either.
:cuss
 
James Freeman said:
Which is exactly how you get that super crunchy AC/DC tone, you lower the Gain to about 4 where the 1nF bright cap is very present then slam it with a healthy boost.
Or 80s metal tone for that matter, Gain at 6-7 which still has plenty of bright cap effect and slam with classic OD pedals.[...]
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After two months of exhausting apprenticeship as your side kick: can we finally talk money?
f2b6afe0f0b0df2acca0ff7e9bea942c.gif
 
James Freeman said:
Which is exactly how you get that super crunchy AC/DC tone, you lower the Gain to about 4 where the 1nF bright cap is very present then slam it with a healthy boost.
Click to expand...

This is interesting. Forgive my ignorance… I always thought the effect of the bright cap was small at high master settings, didn’t know high gain settings would behave similarly (if I understand correctly).

This impacts my brit trem brt presets as follows. I usually keep the input pad on also when using passive pickups. This feeds a weakish signal to the amp, and I compensate running the gain higher. Yesterday I tried boosting the signal and running the gain lower, and the tone seems to have more kerrang.

If this is behavior is true of many amps having a bright cap, I may have to revisit my presets in light of this. @James Freeman , do you know if the Bogner Shiva also has a bright cap?
 
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