Helix JCM800 2203 Request Thread (FW 3.70 new Brit 2203)!

So I decided to play with the 800 model a little the other day. Holy mother of gain. I had a strat in my hands at the time with low output 50s style pickups, and I could not believe how much gain it had even with the amp drive around 2 and the MV down. Definitely not what I expected from an 800, while I have practically zero time on a real 800 so it’s possible that I’m just wildly misinformed on their gain levels.

I was messing with it because I wasn’t quite finding what I was looking for in other models that day with the strat. It didn’t ultimately get me where I wanted to go right then, but I will revisit the model in the future as I could get some good cleans from it too with somewhat exaggerated settings and then it had ridiculous gain available and everything in between. I think the current model has some cool stuff available in it.

It doesn’t have that aggressive Marshall bright cap sound though. There’s a certain juiciness in the upper mids that you just don’t get without that cap it seems.

D
 
EOengineer said:
I think you are cracking some jokes here but I’m not certain.

:rofl

The vintage single coil -> fuzz -> Marshall tone recipe is a delicious one, though.

IMO there are 2 things Marshall 70s 4 hole or 800s do that IMO make them unique gems that warrant having the bright cap be optional - both in physical circuits and digital models.

1. Rocking w/ Les Paul or SG - the “Gibson & Marshall” thing requires the bright cap. It’s the quintessential sound of 50+ years of Rock.

2. Strat or tele with vintage single coils and pedals - this CAN work with bright cal but it’s a balancing act and is easier without it. These amps take boost, EQ, and dirt/fuzz pedals in an interesting way that is very different than what you’d expect from something like a Deluxe Reverb. Dirt through my Deluxe usually feels like it’s sitting on top of the amp sound, where the same pedals through my Marshalls feels like it’s part of the amp. This is especially nice with fuzz because the Marshall clips early which starts rounding off the edges and makes most fuzz sound more musical. I VASTLY prefer my fuzz through Marshall when compared against Fender.

Anyway - TLDR - we need bright caps, but it would be SUPER helpful to provide an option to defeat it so both tonal paths are available.

I really hope L6 gives us a 1959 AND a 2203 with that option. It would be a true game changer for the Helix for us Marshall fanboys.
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Isn’t it more common for pedal and single coil players to use the low inputs? can turn the gain up for less bright cap influence, lower impedance to tame some spike, more wiggle room for dialing pedals in?

Doesn’t really help with Helix because we don’t have the low inputs as an option. Can maybe approximate it with the 4 holers by lowering level and impedance but with the 2203/2204 circuit it bypasses a gain stage.
dk_ace said:
So I decided to play with the 800 model a little the other day. Holy mother of gain. I had a strat in my hands at the time with low output 50s style pickups, and I could not believe how much gain it had even with the amp drive around 2 and the MV down. Definitely not what I expected from an 800, while I have practically zero time on a real 800 so it’s possible that I’m just wildly misinformed on their gain levels.
Click to expand...

Helix 2204 definitely has too much gain compared to any 2204 I've owned.

Orvillain said:
900's are bad ass. Basically... the only s**t amp Marshall ever made was the TSL. All the others are sick.
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JCM900 SLX>JCM900 MKIII>JCM900 4100 Dual Reverb. But they all do a job.

Even TSL's are much better than they get credit for, they're just a different thing to the classic Marshall circuits. I dig em for what they are. Mode 4 on the other hand....
 
James Freeman said:
Here's my attempt to tone match the Softube JMP 2203 (1v Peak = 0dBFS) with 0.5 gain steps, I got quite close I would say.
Matching with Master at 1, all else at 5 (noon), tonestack and presence behave identically.
Line 6's 2204 poweramp response is also identical, I didn't have to do any post eq.

Download Link:
Code: 
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1FoiuptW7WZBg1mxE2nEMJ1C1VCwEMITm

View attachment 7701
Click to expand...
@James Freeman thank you so much for this and for your commitment to the Helix JCM800 cause! I tested these EQs and I LOVED the result into my SS power amp and V30 cabinet.
It's not the perfect solution but that's what I'll be using until we have the Brit 2203 model 😉
 
MirrorProfiles said:
Isn’t it more common for pedal and single coil players to use the low inputs? can turn the gain up for less bright cap influence, lower impedance to tame some spike, more wiggle room for dialing pedals in?

Doesn’t really help with Helix because we don’t have the low inputs as an option. Can maybe approximate it with the 4 holers by lowering level and impedance but with the 2203/2204 circuit it bypasses a gain stage.
Click to expand...
I know all the Pumpkins fans know about the Big Muff through the low input, but I'm not sure if it's common knowledge to use that input for drives and pedals. I need to try that with my 2204 actually...I haven't made it over to the low input yet. There might be some really cool applications for an A/B box there where the low input path has some pedals to goose it, and then you switch over to the B path to rage out with no pedals - or whatever you want on the B path. I know there is a volume difference there but I bet a boost or OD on the low path could get close to or overcome that.

EDIT: It looks like an AB box isn't an option, as the low input overrides the high input if a cable is connected.
FF0VYq8WYAQ4pbH.jpg
 
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It would be useful if they model the Low input too, maybe a High/Low switch like the Grammatico GSG model OD Switch bypasses gain stages.

The low input has an interesting impedance characteristic because we plug directly into the RC network before the cold clipper stage, it's not flat 1Meg like the High input so it has a 'sound' that's maybe worth having besides lower gain.

Here's the low input impedance with Gain at 5.
Goes from 1.5Meg to 100k at high frequencies so it might affect some guitars/pedals, but we also introduce the bright cap with gain below 10.

Low impedance.png



And here's the low impedance input with Gain at 10.
Goes from 1.5Meg to 1Meg and the bright cap is bypassed.

full impedance.png


---

Edit: This input impedance can't be emulated on the real input jack of the Helix obviously, but other virtual models before the virtual amp can be affected by this if there is real time RC calculation going on.
 
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I don't want to open a can of worms here (Okay, I'll do it anyway), but the ML800 from ML Sound Lab models the Low Input as well and it works amazing for clean stuff. Now... I don't know about the ML800's "sound fidelity" (I like it) or if a real 2203 low input works this way (only ever used HIGH on the real deal), but yes, I take it any day.

And maybe just because I am a completionist, when it comes to this stuff...

(Have you guys tried ML800? I love it, especially after the newest update they pushed out)
 
James Freeman said:
Very interesting...
They completely remodeled the entire thing, with a real cab as a load.

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re modelled, or re captured?

I’m wondering if the latest versions are using NAM as the base. I think the knob settings are just IR’s and it’s interpolating between. They sound quite good considering (I remember years ago someone eq matching a metal zone to a 5150 and it was depressingly close).
 
MirrorProfiles said:
re modelled, or re captured?

I’m wondering if the latest versions are using NAM as the base. I think the knob settings are just IR’s and it’s interpolating between.
Click to expand...

Now that you mention it, it might be the case.
Softube JMP 2203 might be capture based too, because when I was tone matching (measuring) it I have noticed that the Gain control is not 'ideal' in its sweep or how the bright cap comes into play. :unsure:

There isn't enough juice on a DSP to run very accurate capture based models though, Line 6 will have to do it the hard way, measure and replicate all the nuances manually.
 
James Freeman said:
Now that you mention it, it might be the case.
Softube JMP 2203 might be capture based too, because when I was tone matching (measuring) it I have noticed that the Gain control is not 'ideal' in its sweep or how the bright cap comes into play. :unsure:

There isn't enough juice on a DSP to run very accurate capture based models though, Line 6 will have to do it the hard way, measure and replicate all the nuances manually.
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I know softube’s approach involves modelling a specific unit rather than an optimal one. I think some of their emulations are from Marshalls own museum/collection (after being serviced), some may have been in Softube’s possession already. No idea what tech/processes are involved in how they make their sims though
 
MirrorProfiles said:
Helix 2204 definitely has too much gain compared to any 2204 I've owned.
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This makes me wonder how much of it is up to the preamp tubes if the voltages are exactly the same.
The voltages of the 2203 never changed until 1985 when they moved to the Horizontal design/circuit until it was discontinued in 1989.
The 2203 reissue that became available again since 2002 has the old pre-1985 voltages and it's properly gainy, an excellent reissue.

Here's a stock 1983 2203 demo that has plenty of gain unboosted.



---

God I hope Line 6's next JCM800 is NOT a Horizontal Input 1985-1989 model, but a proper early one or the reissue.
🤞🤞🤞

No mistakes this time, you have ONE JOB.
 
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James Freeman said:
This makes me wonder how much of it is up to the preamp tubes if the voltages is exactly the same.
The voltages of the 2203 never changed until 1985 when they moved to the Horizontal design/circuit until it was discontinued in 1989.
The 2203 reissue that became available again since 2002 has the old pre-1985 voltages and it's properly gainy.

Here's a stock 1983 2203 demo that has plenty of gain unboosted.



---

God I hope Line 6's next JCM800 is NOT a Horizontal Input 1985-1989 model, but a proper early one or the reissue.
🤞🤞🤞
Click to expand...

oh I definitely roll preamp valves to find the best amount of gain I can. Jason’s clip sounds right to me, (and reissue 2203’s sound correct to my ones). The beauty of those amps to me is that if you play hard the amp responds accordingly, they’re really dynamic and you perform the amp as much as the guitar.

Helix’s 2204 sounds gainier to me. Could be from the mushiness of the amp making it sound more like a normal amp with the gain up as more low end is coming through.
 
MirrorProfiles said:
Helix’s 2204 sounds gainier to me. Could be from the mushiness of the amp making it sound more like a normal amp with the gain up as more low end is coming through.
Click to expand...
Yes, that's my assumption too, it has way too much lows and mids that distort giving the impression of more gain.
Or their amp has been modified beyond a few clipped bright caps.
 
James Freeman said:
Yes, that's my assumption too, it has way too much lows and mids that distort giving the impression of more gain.
Or their amp has been modified beyond a few clipped bright caps.
Click to expand...
on my comparison videos, to get it even slightly close to my real amps (and other emulations) I have to drop the input gain. It’s the only amp model in Helix where I have to mess with the input level to get an accurate gain response.

 
Here's a series of demos of the entire reissue collection.

This 2203 remains crunchy even with gain on 10, using a Strat but he plays on the humbucker most of the video.
Great demonstration of the bright cap at lower gain settings here.

 
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