Helix JCM800 2203 Request Thread (FW 3.70 new Brit 2203)!

[MirrorProfiles]

@MirrorProfiles, what's your general impression between your BE and your 2204?

very different. I usually set my BE up to get somewhat close because I'm just used to the 2203/2204 sound - C45 on, presence and treble quite high, modern voicing, highest gain structure and BE channel. The brighter settings overcome the smoother Friedman feel, but they still feel like very different amps. Higher gain modes on BE let you have the gain control lower for more bright cap in the circuit.

Friedman designed the BE to be like the ultimate Plexi - you can do those fat saturated tones at any volume, a good fx loop, with channel switching and classic circuit mods. By comparison a 2204 is wild, unruly, one channel, a master volume that is instantly loud, no fx loop. I actually think a lot of the mods are there to make it sound great at bedroom/music store volumes

I don’t think the BE is trying to be an 800, it’s a scrubbed up Jose style Plexi that gives you modern conveniences to make it a more useful amp than a non-MV 1959. Cranked plexi sound and feel at any volume, with some polish to make it sound a bit more refined and studio ready. I think I posted a video somewhere in this thread of a (boosted) 2203 vs Friedman BE100. They're both Marshall's but not the same thing at all.

JEL circuit is much more like an 800 (and would be an excellent addition to Helix’s amp list imo). Dirty Shirley is also very much a JCM800 preamp (with different filter nodes powering the preamp) and JTM45 power amp. Excellent circuit.

EDIT: I should add that Line 6 REALLY nailed the BE100 model, its basically the benchmark to judge all their other models accuracy from IMO.

 

[MirrorProfiles]

 

[DieSchmalle]

“Crushed glass top end thing” is great descriptor. You can hear it even in this clip. The Placater is fuller in the lows and low mids and just doesn’t have that brash top end that the Fractal 2203 has.

Clean-ish sounds make the differences really apparent, where you can hear that “crushed glass” breakup in the top end when you really dig in with the clean tone riding underneath.

I get all that. For a strat guy like me the "crushed glass" thing is borderline too much treble though. Single coils and the treble boost from the bright cap is not only prone to get ice-picky, but the noise is more prominent, too.
That said I like to have a stock 2204 model available, too.
The Fractal is a 2204 btw.

 

[DieSchmalle]

Dirty Shirley is also very much a JCM800 preamp (with different filter nodes powering the preamp) and JTM45 power amp. Excellent circuit.

Oh yes, the Dirty Shirley is fabulous.

 

[DieSchmalle]

And while we're at it: bright cap option (100pF) for the JTM45 would be much appreciated.

 

[BahamaDada]

Wow. I love those analysis and comparisons! Keep em coming, guys.

Slightly off topic: Do the Helix SLPs also have stuff removed? If so, why?

 

[EOengineer]

Sweet Jeebus does that 71 SL sound awesome. I prefer it over the Friedman though they both sound good.

I get all that. For a strat guy like me the "crushed glass" thing is borderline too much treble though. Single coils and the treble boost from the bright cap is not only prone to get ice-picky, but the noise is more prominent, too.
That said I like to have a stock 2204 model available, too.
The Fractal is a 2204 btw.

I have a working theory that a lot of the lore around “good” and “bad” Plexis and 800s comes down to Fender players vs Gibson players and the differences in how those guitars interact when a bright cap is in the circuit.

Single coil Fenders are BRUTALLY bright through my 1959 and 2204 for most settings. I often bypass the bright caps with those guitars. However, without the bright caps my Gibson style guitars come across somewhat lifeless.

One guy with a vintage spec Strat plugs into a Marshall with no bright cap - THIS AMP IS MAGIC! Every other stock Marshall sounds wrong to them.

The opposite happens for the Les Paul player. Most stock Marshalls sound great to him. Occasionally he plugs into one with the bright cap removed unbeknownst to him - WOW SOME MARSHALLS ARE DUDS!

If Marshall had just put the bright cap on a switch like fender did on some of their amps, there would a whole lot less frustration and confusion around older Marshalls.

 

[James Freeman]

Another thing...

When the 2203 topic comes up people on the other place always (always) tell me and others the Placater will do JCM800 just fine.
How? Never got it to be like that. I love the Placater, but it's its own beast IMO.

Not only on the other place.
It's a weird phenomenon, every time a JCM800 is mentioned there's ALWAYS that guy, like a moth to a flame.

First comment on the Ideascale request to refresh the JCM800:

Spoiler: Serious Question

 

[James Freeman]

Slightly off topic: Do the Helix SLPs also have stuff removed? If so, why?

Yes, there are no bright caps on any of the Helix Marshall models except the "Brit Trem Brt".

Why?
I have several theories.

1. Clipping bright caps was a VERY popular mod, 9/10 classic Marshalls you buy second hand are modded, the amp is modeled as is.
2. The bright caps were intentionally removed so the amp models are more pedal friendly.
3. Leftovers form the POD HD era, these were the first amps they modeled for the Helix almost 10 years ago, probably the same amps in the HD with the poor decisions somebody made way back before the Helix team.

---

70s Super Lead "Metal Panel" is also one of the essential classic Marshalls that's not represented in the Helix, I think we mostly have modified 60s Plexi's.

70s Super Lead:
Channel 1: 2.2nF coupling, 5nF bright cap, 0.68uF on cathode, 33k+500pF tonestack, 0.1nF Presence.




Maybe some day...

 

[DieSchmalle]

Yes, there are no bright caps on any of the Helix Marshall models except the "Brit Trem Brt".

Why?
I have several theories.

1. Clipping bright caps was a VERY popular mod, 9/10 classic Marshalls you buy second hand are modded, the amp is modeled as is.
2. The bright caps were intentionally removed so the amp models are more pedal friendly.
3. Line 6 don't like bright amps.
4. Leftovers form the POD HD era, these were the first amps they modeled for the Helix almost 10 years ago, probably the same amps in the HD with the poor decisions somebody made way back before the Helix team.

---

70s Super Lead "Metal Panel" is also one of the essential classic Marshalls that's not represented in the Helix, I think we mostly have modified 60s Plexi's.

70s Super Lead:
Channel 1: 2.2nF coupling, 5nF bright cap, 0.68uF on cathode, 33k+500pF tonestack, 0.1nF Presence.

View attachment 8244
View attachment 8245

Maybe some day...

5. Noise.
6. Gain control less usable since it doesn't affect high frequencies and also drastically alters the tone.
7. Gain control is "secretly" changing tone which is unintuitive and can irritate players. When I played an 800 in a store for the first time (a used one) I genuinely thought it was broken.

 

[James Freeman]

6. Gain control less usable since it doesn't affect high frequencies and also drastically alters the tone.
7. Gain control is "secretly" changing tone which is unintuitive and can irritate players. When I played an 800 in a store for the first time (a used one) I genuinely thought it was broken.

Yeah, possibly for more 'predictable' behavior and tone across the gain control.

That is completely unnecessary if true, classic Marshalls do their own thing exceptionally well and that thing is on a million records.
If one feels the need to butcher a classic Marshall so a Strat + Fuzz Face sounds good with it, DON'T F**KING DO IT, especially in a modeler where you have a hundred other amp models.

 

[MirrorProfiles]

8. Bright caps make NMV Marshall’s instantly LOUD. You’ll go from off to instant pain because the bright cap has such a strong influence. Removing it means you can get some slightly quieter, less gained out tones

 

[BahamaDada]

Interesting. Isn't there a way with High/Low Shelf EQ to kinda "emulate" the bright cap? Saw it on TheOtherPlace. I always read it. yet I instantly forget it bc my mind is like a Nudelsieb.

 

[James Freeman]

Interesting. Isn't there a way with High/Low Shelf EQ to kinda "emulate" the bright cap? Saw it on TheOtherPlace. I always read it. yet I instantly forget it bc my mind is like a Nudelsieb.

You can, but every setting requires a different amount of EQ, up to 35dB of boost which requires several EQ blocks.

Brit Trem Brt with gain at 1 and 10, with a -60dB input pink noise on the input:

I have a Softube 2203 tone matching Setlist for the Helix, every Gain setting is a different preset with a different amount of EQ.

Helix JCM800 2203 Request Thread (FW 3.70 new Brit 2203)!

I recently pulled out my Ceriatone 2204 which uses the late 70s 2204 spec. It’s pretty damn gainy, but not as gainy as the helix 2204. I have the 3 way bright cap mod installed too and can confirm without a doubt that there is more going on with the HX 2204 than just a missing bright cap. My...

thegearforum.com

Another very important detail, the preamp distorts differently with a real (emulated) bright cap.
An EQ before the amp gets you close, but if you boost the amp with a pedal it will not distort quite the same.

 

[DieSchmalle]

You say it like it's a bad thing.
Classic Marshalls do one thing exceptionally well and that one thing is on a million records.

If one feels the need to butcher a classic Marshall so that a Strat + Fuzz Face sounds good with it, DON'T F**KING DO IT, especially in a modeler where you have a hundred other amp models.

You listed some theories on why Line6 went without bright caps and forgot the important ones. Don't blame others for naming these points, don't ignore them and don't move the goal posts.

 

[Orvillain]

I'm not exactly sure how close it is to what you want James, but the crunch red channel on my Satriani JVM is killer, and I'd rather use it than any of the Marshalls on Helix and Fractal.

The manual says this:

It's written in some Arcane Medieval England script, possibly Bletchley Cyrllic. I will attempt to translate:

"Green is a JMP bro. Orange is a JCM800 2203. Red is a modded JCM800. They are all well gud."


The Axe III has the yellow and red options, but they sound quite a bit darker than my amp. Likewise with the OD/Lead channels.

 

[SillyOctpuss]

It's written in some Arcane Medieval England script, possibly Bletchley Cyrllic. I will attempt to translate:

"Green is a JMP bro. Orange is a JCM800 2203. Red is a modded JCM800. They are all well gud."

This just made my day

You've had the regular jvm and the JS model haven't you @Orvillain? How different are the crunch channels on them both? I know the OD channels are pretty different but no clue on the others.

 

[Orvillain]

You've had the regular jvm and the JS model haven't you @Orvillain? How different are the crunch channels on them both? I know the OD channels are pretty different but no clue on the others.

I haven't owned both, no. I've tried the regular JVM in the studio, but not side by side. So anything I say would be based on memory. Now my recollection is that the original JVM was gainer on all channels, and actually I'd say had far too much gain on tap. The red modes don't need to go any higher than 10 o'clock on the knob, IMHO. The Satch is a bit more forgiving, and gives you more range to the knob.

In terms of the core tone, very similar. Both amps will do that cranked Marshall stack thing.

For me, the main salient differences are that channel switching times are much faster on the Satch JVM, because it doesn't have the built in reverbs. The built in noise-gates are exceptional.

 

[SillyOctpuss]

I haven't owned both, no. I've tried the regular JVM in the studio, but not side by side. So anything I say would be based on memory. Now my recollection is that the original JVM was gainer on all channels, and actually I'd say had far too much gain on tap. The red modes don't need to go any higher than 10 o'clock on the knob, IMHO. The Satch is a bit more forgiving, and gives you more range to the knob.

In terms of the core tone, very similar. Both amps will do that cranked Marshall stack thing.

For me, the main salient differences are that channel switching times are much faster on the Satch JVM, because it doesn't have the built in reverbs. The built in noise-gates are exceptional.

Thanks for that. I'd like to try a satriani model, I love my jvm but it definitely has way too much gain especially on the OD channel. I tend to live on crunch orange and OD1 green/orange but with the gain pretty low. I also don't use the Reverb and could do with the noisegates, my Helix does all reverbs/delays and mods.

 

[EOengineer]

If one feels the need to butcher a classic Marshall so that a Strat + Fuzz Face sounds good with it, DON'T F**KING DO IT, especially in a modeler where you have a hundred other amp models.

I think you are cracking some jokes here but I’m not certain.



The vintage single coil -> fuzz -> Marshall tone recipe is a delicious one, though.

IMO there are 2 things Marshall 70s 4 hole or 800s do that IMO make them unique gems that warrant having the bright cap be optional - both in physical circuits and digital models.

1. Rocking w/ Les Paul or SG - the “Gibson & Marshall” thing requires the bright cap. It’s the quintessential sound of 50+ years of Rock.

2. Strat or tele with vintage single coils and pedals - this CAN work with bright cap but it’s a balancing act and is easier without it. These amps take boost, EQ, and dirt/fuzz pedals in an interesting way that is very different than what you’d expect from something like a Deluxe Reverb. Dirt through my Deluxe usually feels like it’s sitting on top of the amp sound, where the same pedals through my Marshalls feels like it’s part of the amp. This is especially nice with fuzz because the Marshall clips early which starts rounding off the edges and makes most fuzz sound more musical. I VASTLY prefer my fuzz through Marshall when compared against Fender.

Anyway - TLDR - we need bright caps, but it would be SUPER helpful to provide an option to defeat it so both tonal paths are available.

I really hope L6 gives us a 1959 AND a 2203 with that option. It would be a true game changer for the Helix for us Marshall fanboys.