Fractal Talk

[MirrorProfiles]

Well if 50% prefer the change and 50% prefer the original and you can choose either then *checks notes*. That’s 100% of the folks getting what makes them happy.

It’s not an either/or situation at all.

Sure, I’m not against custom/original models as an option (I don’t think anyone is). But if the stock ones don’t sound right, then I’d rather see those improved first.

The reason I buy modellers and emulations is so I can have the sound and behaviour of real amps that i’m familiar with, without the cost, maintenance, space, or volume limitations. Custom/unique models are fine but they are not what I buy the units for, and certainly not at the expense of models I am interested in not sounding right.

 

[KingsXJJ]

In addition to its intended use, I look at the Axe-FX as a preservation device. In the future, when all of the tubes are gone, and amps start failing, all of these amps will be preserved in digital form in the Axe-FX.

I actually like this concept. It would be neat for a young guitarist starting out on guitar to inherit an Axe from an Uncle passing down and continuing the legacy of these amps. But there’s Cliff too and his legacy of what it took to analyze and understand these well enough to attempt to duplicate them. What and how much he learned across those many amps is probably fairly unique and rare. And I bet he had a few ideas of his own as a result. Let’s preserve that as well by offering his signature collection of optimized amps. Just like buying a preset pack but under the hood instead.

 

[KingsXJJ]

Sure, I’m not against custom/original models as an option (I don’t think anyone is). But if the stock ones don’t sound right, then I’d rather see those improved first.

The reason I buy modellers and emulations is so I can have the sound and behaviour of real amps that i’m familiar with, without the cost, maintenance, space, or volume limitations. Custom/unique models are fine but they are not what I buy the units for, and certainly not at the expense of models I am interested in not sounding right.

Completely agree with all of that.

 

[norminal]

Let’s preserve that as well by offering his signature collection of optimized amps. Just like buying a preset pack but under the hood instead.

Aren’t all of the amps already optimized? I’m pretty sure Cliff’s models are “idealized” with properly biased tubes, etc.

 

[Mongillo19]

Completely agree with all of that.

Weve been saying exactly this since the start of this accuracy argument

 

[KingsXJJ]

Aren’t all of the amps already optimized? I’m pretty sure Cliff’s models are “idealized” with properly biased tubes, etc.

Cliff has stated before that during his modeling endeavors he has run across amp designs with mistakes, poor engineering choices either due to cost, supply or the designer’s choice or oversight. Not surprising as designing/building amps involves humans. And getting them to market at a competitive price usually involves compromises of some sort. For example if Fender used transformer “Y” in 1965 because it was readily available and cost effective even though transformer “X” was considerably better suited and made the amp sound better to Leo… yet it was 2X the cost and only available in small quantities so therefore not a viable option…

If Cliff can throw a digital Transformer X on my Axe Princeton, I’m all for it. Or I can keep it stock!

I wonder why Dumble came along?

 

[[Nathan]]

So @[Nathan] kindly reamped some DI's through his JVM and sent settings. All pretty typical stuff, OD1 Orange:

View attachment 43626

Amp Tone: https://samply.app/p/yXEcY9wp5olKpcUtvXry

My first AxeFX tone was eyeballing settings, trying to be as generous as I can to match the tone. If you put settings like this in, it sounds bloated and farty and not like how you'd expect a JVM.

JVM Fractal 1: https://samply.app/p/H2fL7vtcjV40mSoFVLYM

Just to prove the tonal difference is beyond pot tolerances and tapers, the next tone sets the presence and treble to both to 10. This ends up sounding a lot closer to the JVM at "typical" settings.

JVM Fractal 2: https://samply.app/p/ZN11CW4zVRNoot8YkTVF

Lastly, I did a tone that I just dialled totally by ear. This involved being more heavy handed with the amp EQ, changing the preamp LPF, changing the MV bright cap etc. It's not exact, but it's possible to get in the ballpark. But to get it to sound like a "typical" JVM, you need to get your hands dirty, AND use more extreme settings. I don't really associate the JVM as the kind of amp that needs weird settings or a lot of work to sound good, most people seem to use roughly the same kinds of settings.

JVM Fractal 3: https://samply.app/p/UoOW5WnNljRLE5C3KeHx

Eyeballing settings:

View attachment 43627

Treble+ Presence on 10:

View attachment 43628

Tweaking by ear (TOTALLY different mids, treble, presence settings as well as other deeper tweaks):

View attachment 43629

I've always felt the JVM models didn't really represent my experiences with the amps, particularly for sounding too dark/muffled. I can get close enough to be happy with some tweaks, but this only really works when having the real amp to reference against. I'd WAY prefer to be able to just dial the amp like the real thing and get typical tones with more ease.

The real JVM is an amp I think of as fairly bright/tight/twangy/aggressive. The Fractal model leans more fat/fuzzzy/dark/bloated unless you massage it into something else. It doesn't really remind me of a JVM unless you do those sort of adjustments.

All examples can be downloaded here:

https://samply.app/p/GNrA3eINKjjR1rG1ZOSK

You put in the work with this one!

The tweaked one sounds so good side by side to the original, the characteristic sound like its totally there. The only thing I notice when flicking back and forth is the real one has much better stereo separation, the axe feels like its becoming more centre focused. No idea what could be done by Fractal to improve things there but either way its shockingly good.

All these discussions like "are amp sims good enough"... yeah they are "good enough" but there's clearly room for improvement. The improvement at this upper level is what keeps us nerds interested and forking out money for things. If Fractal keep pushing the fold, we'll keep buying things. I can only hope the other big players are thinking the same (can hear Orvillian laughing at Kemper at this notion).

 

[- ★ - BROCKSTAR - ★ -]

Man I really love my new LONELY FOLLOWER pitch block delay I made yesterday! Sounds great with piano sample coming from my ableton move, with some cloud, cirrocumulus reverb

 

[Orvillain]

I understand. Just because they are classic, sold tons and are revered doesn’t mean they can’t be better. If you are arguing that is the case we live in different worlds.

You don't understand.

 

[Orvillain]

The same damn thing happens every time an idea is brought up that some people don’t like. Even though it can be implemented with ZERO EFFECT ON THEM. They don’t like it so they rail against it like it’s some sort of blasphemy and try to deny it for others.

Folks have been modding amps forever. I put forth the idea that maybe I’d like to see Cliff’s preferred mods as an OPTION on the Fractal gear.
He certainly knows amps but Oh…

THE HORROR!

Give me break. There’s no logic to the counter argument at all. So keep digging in your heels everyone.
You’re still wrong on this.

Why are you being such a Karen about it?

 

[Frodebro]

Why are you being such a Karen about it?

We all have our roles to play...

 

[Orvillain]

I honestly don't understand the defensiveness; of which there has been quite a bit.

To even vaguely get the JVM into the ball-park of a real JVM, you have to dial in the Axe3 like an absolute fucking nutjob. It is unintuitive and does not match the average person's experience with a JVM; or any amp in general really.

You've only got to look at the screenshots posted by @MirrorProfiles - anyone with even a passing real world experience with a JVM would know that there is something off with the models.

We all criticise the Fender TMP, and we'll get as anal about impedance curves as you ever could. We'll all laugh at how the Kemper sounds like a bag of grilled cocks powered by thermionic vulture guts from 1882. We all rag on Neural and their shit marketing videos.

But a few people dare to have the temerity to suggest that a couple of models on the Axe3 don't align with real world experiences with the real amp??

THE HORRRORRRRRRRRR!!! THE PURE FUCKING HORRRRRORRRR OFFF ITT AALLLL!!! THIS IS WORSE THAN AMITYVILLE!!! OMFG!!!!!

 

[State of Epicicity]

These are grown ass men, right?

I'm an ass man, if that helps.

 

[Orvillain]

I'm an ass man, if that helps.

Not me. I'm in the growler camp.

 

[State of Epicicity]

I've thought for a while now it would be ideal to have models of amps in good working condition, but with a switch to apply popular mods that are done in the real world, another switch to apply Cliff's preferred mods of those amps, and to keep the deep tweaks you can already make.

I don't know what Fractal's bandwidth is or whatever. Cliff is laconic online, and responds on forums sporadically, and the gatekeeping for what FAS can / cannot / should handle drives me up the wall. You can't suggest any goddamn thing without a society of elders predetermining the wisdom of your suggestion from every potential angle, often without fully reading what you're saying.

 

[JiveTurkey]

The real world JVM must kick complete ass if the FAS one is off and still sounds as good as it does

 

[MirrorProfiles]

I've thought for a while now it would be ideal to have models of amps in good working condition, but with a switch to apply popular mods that are done in the real world, another switch to apply Cliff's preferred mods of those amps, and to keep the deep tweaks you can already make.

I don't know what Fractal's bandwidth is or whatever. Cliff is laconic online, and responds on forums sporadically, and the gatekeeping for what FAS can / cannot / should handle drives me up the wall. You can't suggest any goddamn thing without a society of elders predetermining the wisdom of your suggestion from every potential angle, often without fully reading what you're saying.

I definitely get this and agree it would be cool.

I would definitely recommend learning a TINY bit about how amp circuits work - a lot of common mods are basically just adjusting how much low end makes it through the preamp, how much gain a preamp stage is adding, adding extra gain stages or diode clipping, adjusting NFB, changing presence/depth frequencies, changing bright cap values, or altering the tone stack. A lot of common mods are very much achievable in the axefx and behave in a very realistic way.

It requires a bit of amp circuit knowledge but once you have a loose idea of what you’re doing it’s really fun to mod amps to your taste.

 

[[Nathan]]

You can't suggest any goddamn thing without a society of elders predetermining the wisdom of your suggestion from every potential angle, often without fully reading what you're saying.

 

[MirrorProfiles]

The real world JVM must kick complete ass if the FAS one is off and still sounds as good as it does

The FAS one only sounds good if you get your hands dirty, IMO.

Ive never had much luck with it, honestly, and these comparisons have shown me exactly why. I’ve always wondered why the Fractal one needs extreme eq when the real thing is so plug and play. Good tones are way more effortless on the real amp.

 

[JiveTurkey]

The FAS one only sounds good if you get your hands dirty, IMO.

Ive never had much luck with it, honestly, and these comparisons have shown me exactly why. I’ve always wondered why the Fractal one needs extreme eq when the real thing is so plug and play. Good tones are way more effortless on the real amp.

My preset is basically two small ticks away from stock which I think is everything on 5 I must have low standards