Fractal Talk

[KingsXJJ]

My assertion is that being authentic as possible precisely gets you the best possible tones.

I don’t think that’s true at all. If you think that mass produced amps from 50-60 years ago were built the best they possibly could be back then and that we haven’t learned of anything that might improve them at all in the interim… well then I can see how you might see that statement as true. I think it given the opportunity to ignore cost, component availability, physical constraints, concerns about reliability and plenty of other things… amp builders might have a few ideas about that. Heck even Santiago Alvarez discussed design compromises across Marshall products in order to bring them to market. He designed or was involved with design on JVM’s , AFD, YJM, 2203KK and some DSL’s. He even made a “Director’s Cut” of sorts with the JVM410HJS. Clear proof that popular classic designs are possible to improve or at the very least they can be built different to suit exquisite tast.

But I’m not here to argue, convince or take anything away from you happy place. I’d just like optimized amps that aren’t bound by so many considerations as an option… for me.

 

[norminal]

In addition to its intended use, I look at the Axe-FX as a preservation device. In the future, when all of the tubes are gone, and amps start failing, all of these amps will be preserved in digital form in the Axe-FX.

Thus, I believe all controls should behave like their real counterpart.

 

[Mongillo19]

Clear proof that popular classic designs

They are popular and considered classics for a reason. And who is to say what Cliff says is an improvement is an improvement to someone else. You remove as much bias as possible by just being as accurate as possible.

Idk, it's weird to see this shift that "it's okay for fractal not to be 1:1"

I swear that's reason #1 or close to why people get the thing.

 

[KingsXJJ]

Thus, I believe all controls should behave like their real counterpart.

I think they do. Except where they don’t. Optional optimized amps wouldn’t change a single thing about your desire to preserve or your use. They’ll still be there. But with OPTIONAL optimized amps we can also preserve the legacy of mods as well as items noted by Cliff as to be candidates for improving the amp.

 

[SillyOctpuss]

In addition to its intended use, I look at the Axe-FX as a preservation device. In the future, when all of the tubes are gone, and amps start failing, all of these amps will be preserved in digital form in the Axe-FX.

Thus, I believe all controls should behave like their real counterpart.

That's actually an interesting take on it. I've never thought about it that way.

 

[MirrorProfiles]

So @[Nathan] kindly reamped some DI's through his JVM and sent settings. All pretty typical stuff, OD1 Orange:

Amp Tone: https://samply.app/p/yXEcY9wp5olKpcUtvXry

My first AxeFX tone was eyeballing settings, trying to be as generous as I can to match the tone. If you put settings like this in, it sounds bloated and farty and not like how you'd expect a JVM.

JVM Fractal 1: https://samply.app/p/H2fL7vtcjV40mSoFVLYM

Just to prove the tonal difference is beyond pot tolerances and tapers, the next tone sets the presence and treble to both to 10. This ends up sounding a lot closer to the JVM at "typical" settings.

JVM Fractal 2: https://samply.app/p/ZN11CW4zVRNoot8YkTVF

Lastly, I did a tone that I just dialled totally by ear. This involved being more heavy handed with the amp EQ, changing the preamp LPF, changing the MV bright cap etc. It's not exact, but it's possible to get in the ballpark. But to get it to sound like a "typical" JVM, you need to get your hands dirty, AND use more extreme settings. I don't really associate the JVM as the kind of amp that needs weird settings or a lot of work to sound good, most people seem to use roughly the same kinds of settings.

JVM Fractal 3: https://samply.app/p/UoOW5WnNljRLE5C3KeHx

Eyeballing settings:

Treble+ Presence on 10:

Tweaking by ear (TOTALLY different mids, treble, presence settings as well as other deeper tweaks):

I've always felt the JVM models didn't really represent my experiences with the amps, particularly for sounding too dark/muffled. I can get close enough to be happy with some tweaks, but this only really works when having the real amp to reference against. I'd WAY prefer to be able to just dial the amp like the real thing and get typical tones with more ease.

The real JVM is an amp I think of as fairly bright/tight/twangy/aggressive. The Fractal model leans more fat/fuzzzy/dark/bloated unless you massage it into something else. It doesn't really remind me of a JVM unless you do those sort of adjustments.

All examples can be downloaded here:

https://samply.app/p/GNrA3eINKjjR1rG1ZOSK

 

[Orvillain]

I don’t think that’s true at all. If you think that mass produced amps from 50-60 years ago were built the best they possibly could be back then and that we haven’t learned of anything that might improve them at all in the interim… well then I can see how you might see that statement as true. I think it given the opportunity to ignore cost, component availability, physical constraints, concerns about reliability and plenty of other things… amp builders might have a few ideas about that. Heck even Santiago Alvarez discussed design compromises across Marshall products in order to bring them to market. He designed or was involved with design on JVM’s , AFD, YJM, 2203KK and some DSL’s. He even made a “Director’s Cut” of sorts with the JVM410HJS. Clear proof that popular classic designs are possible to improve or at the very least they can be built different to suit exquisite tast.

But I’m not here to argue, convince or take anything away from you happy place. I’d just like optimized amps that aren’t bound by so many considerations as an option… for me.

You completely misunderstand. It isn't about the amps being built the best they possibly could be.

It is about the digital version of the amp matching 1:1 with the real physical thing.

If the amp was built badly, or doesn't sound good, then the model should match.

This philosophy would mean that approaching an Axe amp the same way as a physical amp, would give you EXACTLY the same experience.

Which is not really the case right now; and there is a lot of apocryphal knowledge required to get the best out of the Axe FX III.


Let's say you're like me, and you have a lot of experience with the JVM.

The Axe FX JVM does not sound as good as the real thing. It just doesn't. Thus - Axe3 isn't giving me the best possible tones.

 

[JiveTurkey]

Why do we expect FAS to be 1:1 when we don't have those expectations for anyone else?

 

[Mongillo19]

Why do we expect FAS to be 1:1 when we don't have those expectations for anyone else?

Idk, I'd like to think we expect all digital units to try their best to be as close as possible to the real thing

But I also think Fractal has gone extra hard (GRAPHS) to prove how accurate their devices are compared to the competition. So imo they invite the criticism

 

[Orvillain]

Why do we expect FAS to be 1:1 when we don't have those expectations for anyone else?

 

[yek]

The Axe FX JVM does not sound as good as the real thing. It just doesn't.

The model is probably authentic to the specific amp Fractal Audio has.

Why Your Amp Doesn't Sound Like Our Amp

The models in our products are based on our in-house reference amps. If a model doesn't sound like your version of that amp it won't sound like our reference amp either. Why? 1. Component accuracy and drift. The components used in tube amps are low-cost, consumer-grade parts. They typically...

forum.fractalaudio.com

 

[Orvillain]

I don't. understand


The model is probably authentic to the specific amp Fractal Audio has.

Why Your Amp Doesn't Sound Like Our Amp

The models in our products are based on our in-house reference amps. If a model doesn't sound like your version of that amp it won't sound like our reference amp either. Why? 1. Component accuracy and drift. The components used in tube amps are low-cost, consumer-grade parts. They typically...

forum.fractalaudio.com

Then how come several people are reporting the exact same differences (IE: too dark versus the real amp) between their real amp and the models themselves??

 

[Mongillo19]

I'm not an expert on amps. I'll be sure to make that clear.

But stating "it doesn't sound the same because of amp tolerance" when it sounds significantly different just seems like an excuse

 

[MirrorProfiles]

Why do we expect FAS to be 1:1 when we don't have those expectations for anyone else?

Huh? I definitely have those expectations for anything I use, but also because Cliff prides himself on it and wants the same. Some amps are dead on (often after lots of refinements and bug squashing), so we know it’s possible. Fractal is the industry leader for this stuff and has always raised the bar.

Firing up a dumbass “one knob” plugin instantly sounded like a typical JVM, which is something I hadn’t been able to easily get of the Fractal model. Ideally I’d just load an amp model and get tones that are in the ballpark. Most of the time that’s the case, but there are anomalies like this that just don’t sound right.

 

[MirrorProfiles]

I don't. understand


The model is probably authentic to the specific amp Fractal Audio has.

Why Your Amp Doesn't Sound Like Our Amp

The models in our products are based on our in-house reference amps. If a model doesn't sound like your version of that amp it won't sound like our reference amp either. Why? 1. Component accuracy and drift. The components used in tube amps are low-cost, consumer-grade parts. They typically...

forum.fractalaudio.com

I posted a ton of examples from youtube above of how the amp typically sounds. I don’t think they vary much, certainly all the JVM’s I’ve used in person were pretty similar. Maybe Cliffs amp is an anomaly? Something about it does not sound good, I can’t imagine anyone with a real JVM ever feels the need to run the presence and treble maxed out in ANY setup.

 

[Orvillain]

I'm not entirely sure... but maybe there is some sort of internal high frequency dampening or smoothing that is part of the underlying engine. Because the same way I can't get the same high frequency "fizz" aggression from the JVM models versus my real JVM, I also cannot quite get the same high frequency aggression from the reverbs when compared to a humble Boss RV-5.

But bear in mind, I regularly wear "I'm with stupid" t-shirts whilst posing in the mirror.... so.....

 

[MirrorProfiles]

I'm not entirely sure... but maybe there is some sort of internal high frequency dampening or smoothing that is part of the underlying engine. Because the same way I can't get the same high frequency "fizz" aggression from the JVM models versus my real JVM, I also cannot quite get the same high frequency aggression from the reverbs when compared to a humble Boss RV-5.

But bear in mind, I regularly wear "I'm with stupid" t-shirts whilst posing in the mirror.... so.....

I think the reverb thing is just personal preference.

But this isn’t the first amp in the AxeFX that I felt just didn’t feel right, and the differences seem to lay in the same areas. I’m sure they measure perfectly in Cliffs test rig, but they don’t always seem to sound or behave like my real world examples. Many of the amps match VERY similarly but there are just a few outliers, IMO. I’m not talking about tolerances, component drift, SIC’s, biases, voltages etc, because they can either be accounted for, or the differences would be random rather than consistent.

Always happy to provide DI’s, reamps, settings, photos of the amp, and whatever else is helpful.

 

[MTB1973]

Which Uber amp version is the Axe 3 model based on? I rarely ever hear anyone talk about using that model.

 

[James Freeman]

I wonder why they didn't update this model?

JVM's double master volume galore is available only in the axefx3.
I fancy myself as a sub-digit master volume connoisseur.

 

[MirrorProfiles]

Which Uber amp version is the Axe 3 model based on? I rarely ever hear anyone talk about using that model.

All we know is it’s an early one. I have a fairly early one, but I’m not sure if Cliffs is a pre-Rev Green or not. It seems somewhat similar to my amp, but feels slightly different to dial in. And it’ll self oscillate with certain SIC’s and sometimes crashes as a result so I don’t tend to use it.

JVM's double master volume galore is available only in the axefx3.
I fancy myself as a sub-digit master volume connoisseur.

The HJS model has the double MV modelled, standard JVM does not, yet at least.