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hahaha wtf. I don't remember that!!
Fractal Audio Systems VP4 - Virtual Pedalboard
- Thread starter laxu
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Someoldqueenorother
Groupie
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It was well over 30 years ago so you'd have been a wee bairn then :) but yes, it actually happened. It was a segment on surviving outdoors and the Army guy demonstrated the whole 'tear off a corner, wipe with one sheet, then clean under the fingernail' approach. It probably stays in the mind because Mum's reaction to this was one of abject horror. I wasn't a regular BP watcher, not really my thing, but I'm glad that I saw this monumental episode.
laxu
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I'm still very conflicted if I want the VP4 or not, and it's not even available to buy in EU yet.
I've been rewatching Leon's and Cordy's videos because they are the few videos out there that show the onboard UI in action, as well as reading the VP4 manual.
Pros:
I'm on the G66 waitlist but go back and forth between wanting to buy one, not buying it, or waiting to see what firmware updates bring.
I've been rewatching Leon's and Cordy's videos because they are the few videos out there that show the onboard UI in action, as well as reading the VP4 manual.
Pros:
- Fractal fx quality!
- Smaller and cheaper than my current pedalboard.
- Ducking for delay/reverb is nice.
- Better visibility to fx. Channels = presets on my pedals, and I can't easily see what each preset is doing until Strymon releases a Nixie 2 compatible with the pedals I have.
- More fx options.
- I don't need a ton of different delays or reverbs.
- I definitely don't need more drive options. Considering keeping Strymon Compadre (comp/boost) + Riverside (drive) and using VP4 for other fx.
- Pitch options would be nice.
- Easy to rearrange fx.
- I don't do this much in the first place. I imagine most of my presets would be something like comp/drive, mod/pitch, delay, reverb in a 4CM, 2 pre + 2 post block split.
- Easy parallel routing. It's a nice-to-have feature but not essential.
- No cable mess.
- Setting up switching is easier. I have a pretty comprehensive setup already using the Luminite M1.
- Size is a poor fit for my Nux Bumblebee M. It too tall/deep to fit 1st row, and too deep for 2nd row to not obscure 1st row pedal controls.
- No dedicated knobs.
- No click on knobs = improving usability of the device with fw updates might be challenging.
- I might grow to resent editing fx with the onboard UI, just like I did on the FM3 and Axe-Fx 3.
- Currently missing features:
- Can't send whatever MIDI messages you want on preset/scene changes.
- Can be replaced by other devices.
- No block reordering via onboard UI.
- No biggie, I rarely do this anyway.
- No way to cycle between fx blocks when you are editing a block. It's a lot of Enter-scroll-Exit-scroll-Enter.
- Hated this on Axe-Fx before the "go back a block" feature was added.
- No quick params similar to Performance View, or just showing 4 currently selected block params without entering the block.
- No user-defined defaults, or ability to save/load favorites without using VP4-Edit.
- This is a big one. It was tested you cannot just dial in blocks that are not in use and have those settings saved in a preset to have custom defaults.
- No copy/paste/swap of scenes and especially channels using the onboard UI.
- Again pushes more functionality to requiring VP4-Edit.
- Can't send whatever MIDI messages you want on preset/scene changes.
- Currently inconvenient features:
- Modulation fx are in separate blocks instead of a single MOD block, so swapping from chorus to flanger means separate presets or wasting blocks just for that.
- Switching channels while editing a block seems inconvenient: You need to go to page 1, change channel, then go back to page 2 to adjust it. Not sure if you can use the hold functions on the pedals to do this instead?
I'm on the G66 waitlist but go back and forth between wanting to buy one, not buying it, or waiting to see what firmware updates bring.
likitlikeyoulikeit
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TL;DR
likitlikeyoulikeit
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This is kinda where I'm at right now.
I think if I didn't have the Meris LVX and MercuryX, as well as an Axe FX III, then this would be a dead cert for me. But where I sit right now is, I have a butt-ton of options and not sure where I'm going:
- I can easily build one or more boards around my existing pedals, and get the sounds I want
- I have quite a few switcher and midi controller options now to put at the heart of any of these
- Since TNBD is no longer a thing, I don't have to concern myself with making sure I can do 15 years of tones; I can just focus on what my staples are, which is a relatively simple list of amp channel and delay+verb combinations.
- Even the Meris pedals are overkill for the actual tones I need!
- I don't need a ton of drive options - one decent overdrive and a fuzz would do it
- I don't need a ton of modulation options - pretty much just phaser
- I've got the big-boy Axe FX III, and that can interface with an amplifier extremely well, and I have the FC12 - a rig using these two and a valve amp, is pretty much undefeatable when it comes to tonal scope (leaving aside the complexity/difficulty factor)
- I've been a bit cool on the Helix love recently, because of Fractal love, but honestly... it is a fucking GREAT bit of kit... easy to use, largely sound amazing, and the few DSP-wishes I have, can easily be filled in by sticking the Meris pedals into some loops, activating kill dry on both of them, and using the Helix mix parameter to avoid additional latency.
- ^ Thus, Helix is still a real option for me, and I'm used to the workflow and can dial it in without any troubles. Midi switching side of things is better than the Axe FX III too.
- GigRig G3 is pretty much the gold standard for loop switchers and just getting crap out of your signal path when you don't want it. It is genuinely one of the best bits of kit you can get for a pedalboard. Having said that, because of trails/spillover, I usually don't have a desire to get my delay or reverb pedals out of the signal path. So really you're talking about a 12 loop/14 footswitch unit to bring a drive pedal in and out. IE: The loop-switching is not something I actually value all that much for my personal usage, even though it is good.
- The midi programming and the remote switching that the G3 offers is really cool. I use the remote switching jacks to switch channels on my Dual Recto, whilst also bringing in a Boss SD-1, which gives me all the combinations of gain I want.
- But the midi switching side of things... even though it is pretty trivial to setup (a lot easier than the Morningstar stuff!) I actually haven't been using it since I got it.
Questions, questions.
HotRats
Roadie
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Ignoring the fact you have a lot of options at disposal, unless form factor is really important I don't see how the VP4 can be a better option than the big boy + FC12.
The way I see it, you've already invested a lot of money on the best fractal hardware and you should use it even if is not as practical as a smaller unit.
laxu
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Same. I have boost on the Compadre that I rarely use (would gladly swap it for a Cloudburst size compressor-only version), my Riverside does a ton, and the Boss FZ-1W is enough for my fuzz needs though I wish I could MIDI control it or at least set it to default to off!
I like chorus, flanger and phaser and the Voice knob on my Strymon Zelzah does that nicely. I was thinking of wiring my board for "chorus/flanger in fx loop, phaser/autowah in front" with its split mode which I have not tried yet.
I'm using Helix Native a good bit. Even ignoring the damn sliders and lack of scaling, it's just a good sounding thing. Not the best sounding, but really good. Line6 just never made the "less than massive size Helix" for my tastes, but it's still my favorite all-in-one floor modeler.
In hindsight I should have bought that pretty cheap, used Boss GT-1000 Core from a Bookoff in Japan back in February. I was just afraid a GX-1000 would come out soon, and the GT-1000 isn't a "sell it quickly" product.
I moved from a Morningstar ML5 board to just "mostly Strymon" when I figured I could simplify my rig a lot by just using MIDI for everything with the pedals connected normally. Went from a Temple Trio 28 down to Nux Bumblebee M packed to the brim.
Totally! I love the Fractal delays and reverbs, and could find uses for the pitch effects, use the occasional rotary...but otherwise I'm in the same boat where the #1 reason I want the VP4 over what I have is those Fractal delays and reverbs.
As much as I love my SA Collider, it's a somewhat cumbersome format on my board due to side jacks, and I don't love its delay that much, while the reverb side does all the good bits of the SA Ventris. It's a shame Strymon doesn't make a truly stellar small box reverb.
norminal
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PorcinePicker
Roadie
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I swear this is exactly how it happened.
I got tired of the talk-talk at the beginning, so I scanned ahead to the playing part….and thought man, the effects are good, but the amp he’s playing through is pretty meh.
I got tired of the talk-talk at the beginning, so I scanned ahead to the playing part….and thought man, the effects are good, but the amp he’s playing through is pretty meh.
@JiveTurkey So, the One Control MIDI dual loop arrived today. Finally got everything hooked up. Guitar in to Dual Loop, one loop to the VP-4 running pre IR-J and the other loop with just the out from the GM-800 to the return of the second loop, and then out of the Dual Loop to my amp. All controlled by MIDI. And it works flawlessly. Now I just have to get all the MIDI commands set up in the Graviton. I'm also trying to wrap my head around setting up 4CM with this monstrosity. I can't use the balanced out from the IR-J because I'm running in to the return of my amp and don't want the IR-J power amp sim and IR's running into it.
JiveTurkey
Goatlord
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Yep. Works great. Not terribly expensive, either.
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So... some random morning thoughts....
In my experience, a lot of other pedals struggle to get the brightness from a reverb that Fractal can. The only other reverb that can get the kind of brightness I look for is the Boss RV-5, funnily enough. Even the MXR M300 is still a bit dark when the tone is turned up.
Ultimately, I don't think lo-fi stompbox reverbs is where I'm at right now. I need Fractal/Eventide/Meris levels of verb. Since I already have them.... may as well utilise them as @HotRats pointed out!
I spent a few more hours last night mucking around with delays on the Axe3. The Graphite Copy Delay is great. I really like it, and it is a lot more flexible than the actual Carbon Copy pedal is too.
I really like the DM-Two Delay as well. I wish it had control over the number of BBD chips utilised, as well as a headroom parameter, because at least with the Adriatic Delay I use those two quite a bit to control the tonal options. @FractalAudio maybe another delay model in future that offers these?
That feature request aside, it is killer. Cures my GAS for another DM2w.
I'm not quite finding the Deluxe Memory Man or Tape tones I want. I'm a big fan of the original big box Deluxe Memory Man. I know there is a TON of variability out there with those, but I'm not quite getting the dirtiness from the Deluxe Mind Guy model. I'll play with it a bit more.
Tape-wise, I really like the Strymon Volante when set to 'Drum' mode, and I really like the Cosmos Echo on Helix, which is a Space Echo.
I really really long for some glitchy/granular delays on the Fractal. Check this out from 6:15:
The Edge of Queens utilises the granular effect on the LVX in the feedback path of the delay, to create these cool sounding randomized glitches. I LOVE stuff like that. Helix has the glitch delay, which I have used a lot on some of my new and upcoming solo stuff. Is it worth buying a HX Stomp just for access to a few of these effects? I don't know man, I don't know.
Again - you can be that precious when you use the VP4, because it doesn't take up all your floor real estate. So HX Stomp keeps you in Helix land and gives you access to some of those niche effects, VP4 gives you all of the high quality sexy Fractal stuff, couple those with the GigRig G3 and a handful of drive pedals, and maybe even keep the LVX on the board too, probably a real world EQ pedal rather than one inside the multi's, volume and wah.... could be a pretty killer setup, and a bit easier to manage tones on the fly than the Axe3 is.
Or the FM9, which for some reason I have in my head would be easier to tweak on the fly than the Axe3 simply because it is on the floor in front of me, rather than behind me on top of the amp, which puts it at an awkward height.
That's also something I've noticed - this is dumb.... but at home.... 4x12 cab.. one amp... Axe3 on top.... awkward to edit. But two amps... and then Axe3 on top.... raises the height of it, and I find it less awkward to edit. Go figure.
Anyway, just some random morning thought-guff.
I disproved this to myself yesterday. I'm at a point where I just can't use the Helix reverbs (for example) anymore. Which means that this isn't a case of "overkill" but simply a case of "the right kind of algorithms" - the MXR M300 Reverb works well too, but is lacking quite a few options.
In my experience, a lot of other pedals struggle to get the brightness from a reverb that Fractal can. The only other reverb that can get the kind of brightness I look for is the Boss RV-5, funnily enough. Even the MXR M300 is still a bit dark when the tone is turned up.
Ultimately, I don't think lo-fi stompbox reverbs is where I'm at right now. I need Fractal/Eventide/Meris levels of verb. Since I already have them.... may as well utilise them as @HotRats pointed out!
I spent a few more hours last night mucking around with delays on the Axe3. The Graphite Copy Delay is great. I really like it, and it is a lot more flexible than the actual Carbon Copy pedal is too.
I really like the DM-Two Delay as well. I wish it had control over the number of BBD chips utilised, as well as a headroom parameter, because at least with the Adriatic Delay I use those two quite a bit to control the tonal options. @FractalAudio maybe another delay model in future that offers these?
That feature request aside, it is killer. Cures my GAS for another DM2w.
I'm not quite finding the Deluxe Memory Man or Tape tones I want. I'm a big fan of the original big box Deluxe Memory Man. I know there is a TON of variability out there with those, but I'm not quite getting the dirtiness from the Deluxe Mind Guy model. I'll play with it a bit more.
Tape-wise, I really like the Strymon Volante when set to 'Drum' mode, and I really like the Cosmos Echo on Helix, which is a Space Echo.
I really really long for some glitchy/granular delays on the Fractal. Check this out from 6:15:
The Edge of Queens utilises the granular effect on the LVX in the feedback path of the delay, to create these cool sounding randomized glitches. I LOVE stuff like that. Helix has the glitch delay, which I have used a lot on some of my new and upcoming solo stuff. Is it worth buying a HX Stomp just for access to a few of these effects? I don't know man, I don't know.
Again - you can be that precious when you use the VP4, because it doesn't take up all your floor real estate. So HX Stomp keeps you in Helix land and gives you access to some of those niche effects, VP4 gives you all of the high quality sexy Fractal stuff, couple those with the GigRig G3 and a handful of drive pedals, and maybe even keep the LVX on the board too, probably a real world EQ pedal rather than one inside the multi's, volume and wah.... could be a pretty killer setup, and a bit easier to manage tones on the fly than the Axe3 is.
Or the FM9, which for some reason I have in my head would be easier to tweak on the fly than the Axe3 simply because it is on the floor in front of me, rather than behind me on top of the amp, which puts it at an awkward height.
That's also something I've noticed - this is dumb.... but at home.... 4x12 cab.. one amp... Axe3 on top.... awkward to edit. But two amps... and then Axe3 on top.... raises the height of it, and I find it less awkward to edit. Go figure.
Anyway, just some random morning thought-guff.
laxu
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I find with reverbs it's a constant battle between "this fits in nicely" vs "this is too dark/bright" vs "this is now overpowering my sound". I find e.g my Strymon Flint is somehow super easy to get into that zone, and so was the Strymon Nightsky. The SA Collider reverbs, while to my ears better than the Flint at least, can be too present where they don't blend in right.
I think Fractal has some good defaults too where they don't sound like too much, and all you need to do is lower the mix a bit.
I had the Axe-Fx 3 on my desk and initially I wanted to set it at an angle so the front panel would be easier to operate. Unfortunately the fan inside does not like this one bit and will get much louder and annoying. Even swapping it for a Noctua does not help with this, so the Axe-Fx 3 is perhaps best at somewhere above desk height, like on top of a big pile of amps and cabs, or in a rack with a bigass poweramp or something.
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The fan in the Mark V kinda blows. I've turned it off for now, hoping I don't need to use it. There are people out there saying the fan is silent, but it isn't. It is actually quite annoying. The Axe3 one is perfectly acceptable to me, however I've not done the angled thing.
For reverb, I quite often want it to overpower my guitar, and that is really easily achievable on the Axe3, without the entire tone going too distant and naff sounding.
Adjusting pre-delay to 80-120ms can often help separate these huge reverbs out from your initial note a bit more, and that is super easy to adjust on the Axe3. Whereas the Ventris and Collider, it was a bit more finnicky and you don't know the underlying value.
Fractal defaults are very often not too far from what I want, so very few tweaks required.
But there again.... yesterday I had:
Input 1 > Delay > Reverb > Output 3
I wanted:
Input 1 > Chorus > Delay > Reverb > Output 3
The amount of clicking going on to just insert that one extra block from the front panel. Super annoying.
Actually working with individual blocks.... it is fine. I don't mind it. Working with the layout and the grid? Time-suck and creativity killer.
laxu
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There's a thread on TOP where someone was showing the insides and outsides of the Mark V:25, V:90 and VII. They each had different fan orientations and only the VII fan orientation seemed like it makes any sense. The V:90 fan looks like it's pushing air to the transformer. Maybe the idea is to pull hot air from the tubes and just let the hot air hit the transformer and go wherever it goes.
Even with huge ethereal reverbs, I prefer that my guitar is still heard first and foremost, but it can be something like "just don't play more than a few notes or it will become a total mess because the reverb does so much". Playing the reverb, if you will!
Totally agree, I love most of the reverbs with stock settings but just adjust the mix, maybe the decay time.
One thing I hate, that still seems to be on the VP4, is the scale of the reverb and delay time knobs. They cover the whole "a few ms" up to "several seconds" and it's finicky to get some exact value or to adjust in a sensible range. I've suggested a "length selector" option for these where you pick short/medium/long/full to narrow the time options to what you actually use.
Yeah that is a pain in the ass. Even if you just move the entire rows around, it cuts off the connections so you have to redo those too.
I hope for next gen we see a more node-based system where you don't have to fill empty grid slots with shunts. At least on the VP4 you don't need to deal with that, but there's no way to move blocks on the onboard UI so you might run into the same issue, if it discards any user settings if you change block types.
Maybe an owner can confirm if you can e.g change slot 3 from delay -> pitch, then change slot 2 to delay and if it will retain delay block settings in this scenario, or revert to block defaults?
Foxmeister
Roadie
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I suspect you are rather like me in reality - I definitely *want* a VP4, but I don't need one and I'm not really sure how much I'd end up using it if I did get one, given I'm not really a heavy FX user.
laxu
Rock Star
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Very much so. I can be happy with nothing but a good tape delay and plate reverb. Everything else is nice to have. That's why in theory a VP4 would be a good option as the 4 block limit would never be a problem for me, but I still like to tweak the fx enough that I might be annoyed by the way the VP4 operates.
I think I would be better off not buying one when it comes available in Europe, and instead wait and see where it goes with firmware updates.
