Dynamics..

It does make a difference when you’re playing live - more stuff to configure/dial in, set up footswitching for, and more tap dancing
Please clarify. You said, "I will say this: when I’m using digital I tend to need more “gain stages” to get the different shades of drive I need." If you really do need fewer switching options for your tube amp, that would have to be due to cleaning up in response to playing dynamics and/or guitar controls. Are you saying you can't get your modeler to do that? It's never been a problem for me.
 
Please clarify. You said, "I will say this: when I’m using digital I tend to need more “gain stages” to get the different shades of drive I need." If you really do need fewer switching options for your tube amp, that would have to be due to cleaning up in response to playing dynamics and/or guitar controls. Are you saying you can't get your modeler to do that? It's never been a problem for me.
I do it all the time. I’ve even gone through an entire two hour rehearsal using just one scene in one preset, using the guitar volume to clean it up.
 
Please clarify. You said, "I will say this: when I’m using digital I tend to need more “gain stages” to get the different shades of drive I need." If you really do need fewer switching options for your tube amp, that would have to be due to cleaning up in response to playing dynamics and/or guitar controls. Are you saying you can't get your modeler to do that? It's never been a problem for me.

I can, it’s just a little different
 
I think a lot of the problem in this discussions is the lack of a common standard. We often are not talking about the same thing.

A says "I can't do X with my modeler", B answers "I can do X". I think what A really means is "When I try to do X with my modeler, it doesn't act exactly as a tube amp".

If we get to that point someone will posts clips, usually showing they sound really really similar... And that still doesn't solve the problem of Playing vs Listening.

Honestly I wish companies for the very end of the process would just leave out all the oscilloscopes and get a guy like Tom Bukovac. He has the chops, the ears, the experience. Don't get him for promo stuff, no, hire him to make a lab rat of him blind A/B'ing until both models sound undistinguishable. If he can't tell, I'm pretty certain nobody will.
 
While you’re posting,here’s one thing I been wondering but can’t get a straight answer or figure it out.
You might know.

The “feel” of an amp for me is governed by input and power stage.
Power stage for compression and input for slew rate.
Let’s forget about the power section.

So the slew rate or slope of the initial attack from silence to peak on a modeller would be governed by the input.
So until some one puts a way to model this for all the amp sims inside it’ll be same-y. Same with plugins it’d be governed by the sound cards input.
Or did I miss a memo
Slew rate has nothing to do with an input stage. Slew rate is a large signal parameter that is typically associated with power stages.

Slew rate limiting usually occurs due to capacitance somewhere that limits how fast the output can swing due to finite current source/sink ability.

For example, slew rate limiting happens in the output stage of an op-amp due to the compensation capacitor and the finite current available to charge/discharge the capacitor.
 
Honestly I wish companies for the very end of the process would just leave out all the oscilloscopes and get a guy like Tom Bukovac. He has the chops, the ears, the experience. Don't get him for promo stuff, no, hire him to make a lab rat of him blind A/B'ing until both models sound undistinguishable. If he can't tell, I'm pretty certain nobody will.
I have to bring up Tom's "my $1600 tube reverb sounds so much better than a Strymon Flint. Here's the tube reverb at a louder volume recorded through a smartphone" video that was floating around. :facepalm

I'd rather trust the oscilloscopes. They don't hear differently due to mood or weather, don't have inherent biases etc. Obviously the person doing the testing has to set it up right too.
 
For example, slew rate limiting happens in the output stage of an op-amp due to the compensation capacitor and the finite current available to charge/discharge the capacitor.
The compensation capacitor - aka "pole-splitting capacitor" - is in the gain stage that immediately follows the differential pair at the input, not the output stage.
 
I have to bring up Tom's "my $1600 tube reverb sounds so much better than a Strymon Flint. Here's the tube reverb at a louder volume recorded through a smartphone" video that was floating around. :facepalm

I'd rather trust the oscilloscopes. They don't hear differently due to mood or weather, don't have inherent biases etc. Obviously the person doing the testing has to set it up right too.

Not sure. Without deep knowledge, common knowledge and clear thinking still applies right? Why would I expect a 600 euro small software device (HX Stomp) to act exactly like a 1960 Fender Deluxe Reverb? :)
 
The compensation capacitor - aka "pole-splitting capacitor" - is in the gain stage that immediately follows the differential pair at the input, not the output stage.
Correct, but the ability to charge/discharge this capacitor is the primary mechanism for slew-rate limiting in compensated op-amps.
 
I've sorta lost the thrust of the thread, but going back to the OP:
How true is it that with modelers there really isn’t that much dynamics compared to a real tube amp?
It isn't true at all. Once amp-sim modelling surpassed the basic initial waveshaping couple with filtering techniques, and progressed into component modelling, all of the circuitry of a valve amp has been able to be modelled within the digital realm.

Whether a company does or not for their algorithms, is another question.

Honestly I wish companies for the very end of the process would just leave out all the oscilloscopes and get a guy like Tom Bukovac. He has the chops, the ears, the experience. Don't get him for promo stuff, no, hire him to make a lab rat of him blind A/B'ing until both models sound undistinguishable. If he can't tell, I'm pretty certain nobody will.
From a product development perspective, Tom Bukkake's opinion is irrelevant. Does the model of the real thing match to the real thing under certain test conditions? If yes, advance to go and collection a gajillion pesto bucks or whatever. If no, then go back to the modelling stage and get it right.

From a marketing perspective, bukkake always wins over dry scientific presentation. Because people are idiots; and horny.
 
I have to bring up Tom's "my $1600 tube reverb sounds so much better than a Strymon Flint. Here's the tube reverb at a louder volume recorded through a smartphone" video that was floating around. :facepalm

I'd rather trust the oscilloscopes. They don't hear differently due to mood or weather, don't have inherent biases etc. Obviously the person doing the testing has to set it up right too.

He will be the first one to tell you the video is more of a way to share his opinion/findings rather than being a high quality recording to actually draw any kind of conclusion from. I really find odd how quickly and how shallow of a an argument you can make to dismiss the opinions of a player of his caliber, with his experience, making a living with both in the most demanding environment possible for decades.

The person setting them up also have their biases.
 
Correct, but the ability to charge/discharge this capacitor is the primary mechanism for slew-rate limiting in compensated op-amps.
Well if we’re done getting bogged down about my non scientific terminology mess up…

So the time it takes from silence to peak of the attack in the ADR is then entirely governed by the output section?
The input has zero to do with it?

Because I can certainly change the filtering on an amp and slow it down or speed it up.
 
From a product development perspective, Tom Bukkake's opinion is irrelevant. Does the model of the real thing match to the real thing under certain test conditions? If yes, advance to go and collection a gajillion pesto bucks or whatever. If no, then go back to the modelling stage and get it right.

From a marketing perspective, bukkake always wins over dry scientific presentation. Because people are idiots; and horny.
In "certain" conditions is a pretty broad term. On the Worship Tutorials video with L6 the A/B they Friedman Model vs the real one... But the A/B is done where the amp in Helix's loop. That taints the results IMO. The HX Stomp colors the tone of my pedals, I could pick which is which in a blind A/B, have done that ad nauseam. With tweaks I could get to a point I'm no longer annoyed by it, but that's as far as it goes.

Calling people idiots and horny while coming up with such nicknames... I think you're either the least or the most self aware person I've ever seen. Can't decide.
 
The person setting them up also have their biases.
To an extent. @Fractal Audio and @James Freeman can probably butt heads over bright cap values all day, and whether certain Marshalls from the 70's should have them or not.

But generally, no. The aim in modelling an amp is to get the digital model to be 1:1 with the real thing. If the test doesn't pass, then the model isn't accurate.

In "certain" conditions is a pretty broad term. On the Worship Tutorials video with L6 the A/B the Friedman Model vs the real one... But the A/B is done where the amp in Helix's loop. That taints the results IMO. The HX Stomp colors the tone of my pedals, I could pick which is which in a blind A/B, have done that ad nauseam. With tweaks I could get to a point I'm no longer annoyed by it, but that's as far as it goes.
Sorry, I mean development test conditions - ie; what Cliff does to confirm that his model of the amp matches the real one. I don't know what those are, which is why I genericized it.

I don't disagree with you btw - for me, this is why I have the GigRig G3. It allows these kinds of A/B comparisons in a very fair way.

Nothing to do with external non-company comparisons. Because Worship Tutorials comparing their Friedman amp to the modelled one is not a valid test, because it isn't the exact same amp.

Calling people idiots and horny while coming up with such nicknames... I think you're either the least or the most self aware person I've ever seen. Can't decide.
Definitely least. Definitely. At least, I think so. Actually... huh... not quite so sure now you've made me think about it. Ho hum. :)
 
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No. Nobody said that.

It would be helpful to clarify exactly what you mean by "slow it down or speed it up," as well as exactly which filtering you're referring to.
Slew rate is an electronic thing right? When a component goes from minimum to maximum resistance or capicitance, or something like that??

I'm not quite sure what Ed is getting at with this tbh.
 
It doesn’t matter if everyone came into this thread and said “they’re the same” if somebody decided to start a thread on this topic, the only way for that person to resolve the question for themselves is to own a tube amp and a modeler side by side for a while.

Sounds like a plan.

Buy Now Rage GIF


(still, i really find this topic fascinating (Graham Hancock voice))
 
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