Dynamics..

[jay mitchell]

From wiki

I saw that bit earlier. It doesn't address what you're talking about. The "slew rate" of a portamento function in a synth has nothing to do with the rise time of a preamp circuit. The rise time of any audio input buffer - tube preamps included - is so short that it is imperceptible. If you're saying that there's a perceivable lag between when you strike the strings and when the note(s) reach full magnitude, then you can't be talking about the behaviors of any useable input circuit.

Again: when you say an amp is "fast" or "slow," exactly what do you mean? And exactly which filters do you modify to make one into the other? I'm sincerely trying to grasp what you're talking about. I will sometimes characterize amps as "hard" or "soft" and varying points in between, but that is a function of the intrinsic compression characteristics of an amp. Power supply sag contributes to this characteristic, as does negative feedback.

 

[0XI0]

Where I might have 3 drive pedals in front of a digital amp, I’ll find I only need one with a tube amp.

modelers have all the gain stages running at the same time constant, irl the time it takes for signal to pass through each stage and the time constant at which each stage effects the signal are all independent to each other. after four or five gain stages the effect compounds drastically with added harmonic content. interstage latencies and clipping time constants of microseconds. but each one is unique. terms like "bloom" aren't just made up for no reason, u have to give it time.

 

[Sascha Franck]

modelers have all the gain stages running at the same time constant, irl the time it takes for signal to pass through each stage and the time constant at which each stage effects the signal are all independent to each other. after four or five gain stages the effect compounds drastically with added harmonic content. interstage latencies and clipping time constants of microseconds. but each one is unique. terms like "bloom" aren't just made up for no reason, u have to give it time.

Err... why would this not be modeled? And how would this be even possible in a serial signal chain? The signal has to be passed from one block to the next, just as in the analog world.

 

[Boudoir Guitar]

modelers have all the gain stages running at the same time constant, irl the time it takes for signal to pass through each stage and the time constant at which each stage effects the signal are all independent to each other. after four or five gain stages the effect compounds drastically with added harmonic content. interstage latencies and clipping time constants of microseconds. but each one is unique. terms like "bloom" aren't just made up for no reason, u have to give it time.

Oh shit, now we are on to the BENEFITS of non-existent latency? That’s a twist I didn’t see coming.

 

[mercifulfuzziness]

Oh shit, now we are on to the BENEFITS of non-existent latency? That’s a twist I didn’t see coming.

 

[0XI0]

Oh shit, now we are on to the BENEFITS of non-existent latency? That’s a twist I didn’t see coming.

well, you know the buzz that sits on top of the rectifier tone, or a morin marshall... that buzz is offset from the fundamental via a latency, that's how it can be mono and still sound 3D. there's a necessary latency inside of individual gain stages controlled by capacitance values, that controls how fast or slow the gain stages are able to react to their part of the signal. in DSP land if they are all the same time constant it's flat. oscillators in simulation won't oscillate until you bump them a little bit to be "not perfect". when you stretch the gain stages time constants all out to be different, the end result harmonics literally "bloom" at the output

 

[Jarick]

@mercifulfuzziness just thinking of what we've talked about the last couple weeks, you can see a lot of these questions can get into academic discussions that don't really move the ball forward in terms of actually playing guitar.

I agree with @Boudoir Guitar - you probably should check out a tube amp just to see what it's like. Because it's more than just the technical performance, there's the physical amp with the knobs you can touch and turn, there's the smell of the tubes running with lots of voltage, there's the interaction of a real guitar speaker with the room.

I'm not saying a tube amp is better, but I don't think you've had that experience and it's worth it. I still remember the first time I experienced a tube amp, it was an old black panel Bassman, and the smell of the tubes was something new, and they lit up crazy blue and orange. It was like black magic.

 

[mercifulfuzziness]

@mercifulfuzziness just thinking of what we've talked about the last couple weeks, you can see a lot of these questions can get into academic discussions that don't really move the ball forward in terms of actually playing guitar.

I agree with @Boudoir Guitar - you probably should check out a tube amp just to see what it's like. Because it's more than just the technical performance, there's the physical amp with the knobs you can touch and turn, there's the smell of the tubes running with lots of voltage, there's the interaction of a real guitar speaker with the room.

I'm not saying a tube amp is better, but I don't think you've had that experience and it's worth it. I still remember the first time I experienced a tube amp, it was an old black panel Bassman, and the smell of the tubes was something new, and they lit up crazy blue and orange. It was like black magic.

Yeah, for the last 3 pages I am reading chinese. And I don't speak or read Chinese!

At some point I def. will buy myself a small tube amp for home. First I will buy myself a new guitar this year... Although I do see myself coming back from that if I mayyy find the right amp. Something like a Supro 1968RK Keeley Custom 12"


Then again, it's just to amplify the sound :)

 

[0XI0]

Err... why would this not be modeled? And how would this be even possible in a serial signal chain? The signal has to be passed from one block to the next, just as in the analog world.

bias x already models "something" to deal with clipping time constant. idk how that single knob is implemented to effect all gain stages in a model, but the effect is more bias x equals slower time constant. a overdrive pedal has almost zero bias x, as fast as it gets. you can turn off bias x on any helix model and it basically gives you that flat distortion pedal feel. I just know there's a lot more to do with the gain stage timing of the models as they currently are, it's a tune by ear thing. when you get it right everything opens up and gets really touch sensitive, and more "dynamic". when it's [bad word] it feels stiff and not touch sensitive, and feels compressed. there's also an element of favorable harmonics vs unfavorable, depending on what sound ur trying to ultimately milk out of it

 

[jay mitchell]

well, you know the buzz that sits on top of the rectifier tone, or a morin marshall... that buzz is offset from the fundamental via a latency, that's how it can be mono and still sound 3D.

No. Just no. Pretending to understand shit you have no clue about only pollutes a discussion of actual issues.

 

[0XI0]

No. Just no. Pretending to understand shit you have no clue about only pollutes a discussion of actual issues.

thanks for your contribution here buddy

 

[Boudoir Guitar]

@mercifulfuzziness just thinking of what we've talked about the last couple weeks, you can see a lot of these questions can get into academic discussions that don't really move the ball forward in terms of actually playing guitar.

I agree with @Boudoir Guitar - you probably should check out a tube amp just to see what it's like. Because it's more than just the technical performance, there's the physical amp with the knobs you can touch and turn, there's the smell of the tubes running with lots of voltage, there's the interaction of a real guitar speaker with the room.

I'm not saying a tube amp is better, but I don't think you've had that experience and it's worth it. I still remember the first time I experienced a tube amp, it was an old black panel Bassman, and the smell of the tubes was something new, and they lit up crazy blue and orange. It was like black magic.

To be clear, I wasn’t suggesting buying a tube amp. If one is happy with the tone they get from their current rig, no need to move on. If one can’t get a good-but-not-perfect tone from just about any modeler an amp is unlikely to solve problems. There are plenty of gear questions we can and should all be happy leaving unanswered for ourselves. Mine will likely be related to tape delay.

 

[jay mitchell]

thanks for your contribution here buddy

You're welcome. If you ever manage to make a contribution, I'll reciprocate.

 

[Jarick]

To be clear, I wasn’t suggesting buying a tube amp. If one is happy with the tone they get from their current rig, no need to move on. If one can’t get a good-but-not-perfect tone from just about any modeler an amp is unlikely to solve problems. There are plenty of gear questions we can and should all be happy leaving unanswered for ourselves. Mine will likely be related to tape delay.

Yeah I get what you're saying, you can't really answer "should I buy this" unless you just jump in and do it sometimes.

 

[mercifulfuzziness]

To be clear, I wasn’t suggesting buying a tube amp. If one is happy with the tone they get from their current rig, no need to move on. If one can’t get a good-but-not-perfect tone from just about any modeler an amp is unlikely to solve problems. There are plenty of gear questions we can and should all be happy leaving unanswered for ourselves. Mine will likely be related to tape delay.

Its not taken that way.

Philip Sayce can make a THR10 sound like this:

I should STFU :)

 

[jay mitchell]

There are plenty of gear questions we can and should all be happy leaving unanswered for ourselves. Mine will likely be related to tape delay.

That's its own world. I had an Echoplex for a time, used a reel-to-reel to create a slap delay, and used a Roland Space Echo for reverb with a band I did sound for ca. 1982-83. While I have good memories of the sounds I could get, no way would I want to screw with one of those devices now. I much preferred the sounds I could get from digital delays, once they became widely available in the early 1980s.

 

[Boudoir Guitar]

That's its own world. I had an Echoplex for a time, used a reel-to-reel to create a slap delay, and used a Roland Space Echo for reverb with a band I did sound for ca. 1982-83. While I have good memories of the sounds I could get, no way would I want to screw with one of those devices now. I much preferred the sounds I could get from digital delays, once they became widely available in the early 1980s.

As tape-curious as I am, I’m even more maintenance averse.

 

[metropolis_4]

All I know is what my ears hear, I’ve given up on trying to understand (or pretend to understand) what causes all of these things to sound the way they do.

But I’m glad there are others out there who do understand and work to keep pushing things forward

 

[laxu]

To be clear, I wasn’t suggesting buying a tube amp. If one is happy with the tone they get from their current rig, no need to move on. If one can’t get a good-but-not-perfect tone from just about any modeler an amp is unlikely to solve problems. There are plenty of gear questions we can and should all be happy leaving unanswered for ourselves. Mine will likely be related to tape delay.

I've firmly adjusted to thinking more about "What's good enough? Does this work for me?"

There's a lot of digital guitar gear on the market that is not perfect, but is more than good enough, without paying the big bucks. This is stuff that you could use to play any gig and you'd be happy with what you're getting, even if you know it's not quite as good as the best things out there.

Then there's all our favorite top dogs, and each of them have their own compromises, mostly in areas other than sound.

Sometimes the good old tube amp + a few pedals is the gear that is "good enough". No, it won't turn into any amp out there at the push of a button, or do any effect out there in full stereo, but if you like say Marshalls the most, do you really need Fenders or Voxes?

 

[FractalAudio]

modelers have all the gain stages running at the same time constant, irl the time it takes for signal to pass through each stage and the time constant at which each stage effects the signal are all independent to each other. after four or five gain stages the effect compounds drastically with added harmonic content. interstage latencies and clipping time constants of microseconds. but each one is unique. terms like "bloom" aren't just made up for no reason, u have to give it time.

This is an absolute bunch of nonsense and demonstrates a complete lack of understanding of what a time constant is.