Drums, Mini Controller (Pads) Duration of Hits FML

[Whizzinby]

Anyone using a midi controller to program drums (particularly with pads vs keys) know a way in Logic to force it to register the hit as the full duration of the beat square when triggered vs partial durations?

I configured the Akai MPD218 with GGD and have it recording, but most hits when registered are partial, and not filling the entire square like when you program it with the pencil using the mouse. I’m sure its based on the duration of the hit on the pad because when you try to hold it a bit longer then the square becomes longer than the beat box. (FML)

Is there a way to just make it trigger to fill the entire box of the beat, (regardless of the precise duration of the pad strike) or am I supposed to develop some extraordinary ability to perform 5,326 hits to absolute perfection for every pad strike in a song?

(Essentially, can it be configured in Logic that the moment it’s triggered, fill the entire square it’s on)

 

[Bruce]

Do you have more questions on this above and beyond our convo?

 

[DrewJD82]

Anyone using a midi controller to program drums (particularly with pads vs keys) know a way in Logic to force it to register the hit as the full duration of the beat square when triggered vs partial durations?

I configured the Akai MPD218 with GGD and have it recording, but most hits when registered are partial, and not filling the entire square like when you program it with the pencil using the mouse. I’m sure its based on the duration of the hit on the pad because when you try to hold it a bit longer then the square becomes longer than the beat box. (FML)

Is there a way to just make it trigger to fill the entire box of the beat, (regardless of the precise duration of the pad strike) or am I supposed to develop some extraordinary ability to perform 5,326 hits to absolute perfection for every pad strike in a song?

(Essentially, can it be configured in Logic that the moment it’s triggered, fill the entire square it’s on)

If you drag your mouse to the edge of the MIDI note in the piano roll, you can stretch it to the right and it’ll fill in the square. After that each MIDI note should do it automatically. I don’t know what setting controls this, but when manually drawing in MIDI notes, it’ll copy the length and velocity of the last one I altered. I’m not sure if it’ll work the same way with the MIDI controller though.

Are the drum hits sounding out all the way? I know with the Toontrack stuff it doesn’t matter the length of the MIDI note, it’ll play the hit all the way through regardless, only the velocity is accounted for.

 

[TJontheRoad]

Open the track edit menu. Select all notes and select Functions drop down > MIDI transform > Quantize Note Length or Fixed Note Length.

 

[Whizzinby]

Thanks for the help guys, I’ll take a look at it in bit.

 

[TJontheRoad]

Some screenshots for you. You need to divide the 240 maximim events per beat to whatever length you want.

 

[Sascha Franck]

know a way in Logic to force it to register the hit as the full duration of the beat square when triggered vs partial durations?

In realtime it's pretty much impossible unless you always want the same note length (in that case, a transformer could do the trick). When editing -> what @TJontheRoad said.

Anyhow, let me ask you: Why would you need this for drum programming?

 

[Whizzinby]

In realtime it's pretty much impossible unless you always want the same note length (in that case, a transformer could do the trick). When editing -> what @TJontheRoad said.

Anyhow, let me ask you: Why would you need this for drum programming?

I’ve been told by wiser heads that as long as it sounds in time to ignore it. TBH I only tried using it long enough to wonder if it was an issue not having it fill the block like when programming via pencil/mouse.

TBH I’d also like it to ignore the velocity. (And manually change those later if desired) It’s tough to trigger precise velocities in real time. Seems like it’s tough to trigger them anything other than extremely soft or at max.

 

[Bruce]

I’ve been told by wiser heads that as long as it sounds in time to ignore it. TBH I only tried using it long enough to wonder if it was an issue not having it fill the block like when programming via pencil/mouse.

TBH I’d also like it to ignore the velocity. (And manually change those later if desired) It’s tough to trigger precise velocities in real time. Seems like it’s tough to trigger them anything other than extremely soft or at max.

You can adjust the sensitivity of the pads however you like. On the 226 I think there’s a mode for max velocity. Maybe yours has too. But you should want a varied performance, it’ll be more lifelike.

 

[Bruce]

If you just peck on a pad and trigger a cymbal, you hear the cymbal slowly fade out, right? It shouldn’t cut off because the note length isn’t long enough.

 

[Whizzinby]

You can adjust the sensitivity of the pads however you like. On the 226 I think there’s a mode for max velocity. Maybe yours has too. But you should want a varied performance, it’ll be more lifelike.

For sure, I’d just like it to default around 75% velocity, and then be able to go back and vary the velocity on some hits here or there. Largely because my early results are just either they are extremely soft hits or near max with little in between. In that event it would just be better to have a static velocity, and manually alter a few for a more natural feel.

That said, this is fully noting I’m just basing that on about 30 minutes of play time. Maybe I can become a more consistent trigger pad player.

 

[Sascha Franck]

I’ve been told by wiser heads that as long as it sounds in time to ignore it. TBH I only tried using it long enough to wonder if it was an issue not having it fill the block like when programming via pencil/mouse.

Alright, here's the technical and musical explanation: When you hit any kind of typical drum element (regardless whether it's a snare, kick, cymbal, shaker, whatever...), the duration of the sound is determined by the way the instrument is built. You strike a cymbal and it will just ring as long as it does (yeah, I know, you can as well manually stop a cymbal - but that's a rather rare thing to happen). In other words: at least usually, the length isn't anything you usually control actively.
Now, on the techical (read: DAW, MIDI and sampling) side of things, this very behaviour is represented as well. When you trigger a cymbal sample with whatever you're using (MIDI keyboard, some sort of trigger pad, etc.), only the "note on" message is relevant, the "note off" messages are ignored by the device (usually a kind of drum plugin), so that the samples can ring out just the way they'd do in real life. This is also called "one shot" (or "one shot samples"). Hit 'em and they'll ring out. As a result, with all these one shot sounds, there's absolutely no need to control the note length - simply because note off messages (happening at the end of the note) are ignored anyway.
Does that make sense (sorry, I'm no native english speaker)?

TBH I’d also like it to ignore the velocity.

Ok, on that one, I'd strongly advice you not to. If anything, velocity (read: dynamics) makes up for lively tracks. You can quantize your notes to the grid all day long, most people likely won't notice - but keep the velocities the same and you're in boredom land instantly.
For a start, I'd recommend to pre-program a simple hihat pattern (just 8th notes - and in that case, you might not need much dynamics, just accent the on- or off-beats ever so slightly) and experiment with kick and snare. Or add a snare on beats 2 and 4 and just experiment with a kick. Fool around with slightly different patterns and dynamics.
Yes, you can edit things later on, but especially when it comes to velocity/dynamics, that's an extremely tedious process and you'd be off WAY better in case you've got it right in the first place. And believe me, it's not even remotely as tough as it seems at first.

 

[Sascha Franck]

Oh, btw, hihats are a special kind of one shot samples. They're still the same as all the others, but they're grouped in what usually is called "exclusive" or "voice" groups. So, as long as you keep going on your open hat, it'll ring just like a cymbal, but once you hit that closed hat key, it'll stop ringing. This is caused by the exclusive group only allowing one note number to be played simultaneously at any time.

 

[TJontheRoad]

I’ve been told by wiser heads that as long as it sounds in time to ignore it. TBH I only tried using it long enough to wonder if it was an issue not having it fill the block like when programming via pencil/mouse.

TBH I’d also like it to ignore the velocity. (And manually change those later if desired) It’s tough to trigger precise velocities in real time. Seems like it’s tough to trigger them anything other than extremely soft or at max.

For sample based sounds like most drums, the note length isn't important. Only the initial trigger applies and the sound will play it's full duration no matter. Note length, or more accurately termed the opened gate length, is only important if there is some type time based envelope applied to the sound's filter, pitch, or amplitude (loudness). As @Sascha Franck mentioned, most groove boxes or software have the ability to stop gate an open hihat or cymbal sound when subsequent close hihat or cymbal mute is immediately played/received.

Quantizing of the note length is helpful for later editing and visualization of the overall beat. There some controllers that let you turn off the transmission of velocity data.

 

[Boudoir Guitar]

All of this is why, honestly, I find it faster to just draw in drum grooves on a piano roll or other grid editor. A good editor has a "randomize" slider for note placement so it doesn't fell as robotic and same for velocity (though you still need to go in and manually adjust accented/ghost notes, etc. for velocity).

The bigger challenge I have with playing stuff in is I always need SOME degree of quantization on some of the parts (unless I'm literally just playing two bars and then copy/pasting...in which case, again, its just faster to draw in usually). And getting the slight degree of swing in everything I play to properly quantize with a grid - whether I've added some swing to the grid, or switched it to triplets, or whatever, is often a pain.

 

[Sascha Franck]

All of this is why, honestly, I find it faster to just draw in drum grooves on a piano roll or other grid editor.

Hm. I use editors for fine tuning all the time, but especially for the main kick/snare grooves, I'm way faster with actually recording them.

 

[Boudoir Guitar]

Hm. I use editors for fine tuning all the time, but especially for the main kick/snare grooves, I'm way faster with actually recording them.

It's strange how two people can have two different experiences, eh?

 

[Sascha Franck]

It's strange how two people can have two different experiences, eh?

Indeed.

 

[fretworn]

I appreciate these discussions fellers … Helps justify purchasing logic and a rig yesterday to run it.

I’ve watched quite a few videos now, and I am amazed how much stuff they’ve crammed into logic.

Things have come along way from a midi piano scroll SW and stand alone loopers like sonic foundry acid.