Digital Igloo (Eric Klein, YGG)

Mobile Devices, Bluetooths, Clouds, Apps...

We are talking about professional guitar gear here right?
Can you imagine tiktok gen z toys in a professional guitar rack of a touring musician?
I'm not talking about professional shills with logo'ed pandemic facemasks but professional musicians who actually choose their own gear along with a good advice form their long term experienced techs.

:facepalm

Kiko.jpg
 
James Freeman said:
Can you imagine tiktok gen z toys in a professional guitar rack of a touring musician?
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Of course not. But tablets have become a constant in many highly professional enviromnents for quite some years already (IEM mix controllers, main console controllers, sheet music organizers/viewers, etc.). And they're really working well, too, in case the basic setup was done professionally.
 
Digital Igloo said:
Still notably better than most other products out there, given that you could map an incoming MIDI CC to any parameter in three seconds, starting with firmware 1.0? Not saying it's ideal, but c'mon.
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Does it still ditch all block MIDI mappings if you switch models? That was always an insanely stupid "feature" to me and made MIDI knob control largely useless on Helix.

MIDI knob control is something pretty much all modelers regardless of brand do just plain terribly. Everything seems so heavily designed around MIDI footswitching.

On my Strymon pedals it just works right - it can be set up to send MIDI out values which can then be used to update an external display or just to keep the controller in sync.

But on digital modelers, it's usually MIDI input from controller only. Change presets? Now your MIDI controller will not adjust from a saved preset value but from whatever it was at internally, e.g your preset sets control A to value 64 but your MIDI controller is at 78 so you turn your mapped knob and it jumps to 78.

I get that it's more complicated on modelers where you have a million parameters and the same CC can be attached to multiple things too. But none of the modelers on the market offer a good solution to expand the knob control options for proper remote control or for working with e.g HX Edit but with the convenience of physical controls.
 
laxu said:
Does it still ditch all block MIDI mappings if you switch models?
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Yes. I could however at least somewhat understand that as the parameters are wildly varying from model to model, but as there's at least some parameters found in pretty much each model of one "class" (such as mix for delays), it'd be a great idea to at least keep all those shared parameter mappings intact.

laxu said:
But on digital modelers, it's usually MIDI input from controller only. Change presets? Now your MIDI controller will not adjust from a saved preset value but from whatever it was at internally, e.g your preset sets control A to value 64 but your MIDI controller is at 78 so you turn your mapped knob and it jumps to 78.
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Don't tell me...
Here's hope for MIDI 2.0, which, from all I know, makes bi-directional communication a lot easier - but we obviously won't see that in existing devices.

laxu said:
I get that it's more complicated on modelers where you have a million parameters and the same CC can be attached to multiple things too. But none of the modelers on the market offer a good solution to expand the knob control options for proper remote control or for working with e.g HX Edit but with the convenience of physical controls.
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Something that would possibly work today already, would be some controller standards as we know from DAW controllers (Mackie HUI and the likes).
 
Sascha Franck said:
Yes. I could however at least somewhat understand that as the parameters are wildly varying from model to model, but as there's at least some parameters found in pretty much each model of one "class" (such as mix for delays), it'd be a great idea to at least keep all those shared parameter mappings intact.
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Nah, it should keep the mappings but just have those mappings do nothing if the control does not exist. Having to redo the mappings is far more of a problem than them being non-functional. Global mappings would also be useful so you don't need to do them for every preset.
Sascha Franck said:
Don't tell me...
Here's hope for MIDI 2.0, which, from all I know, makes bi-directional communication a lot easier - but we obviously won't see that in existing devices.
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Is there still even one device implementing MIDI 2.0? Maybe in the synth world?
Sascha Franck said:
Something that would possibly work today already, would be some controller standards as we know from DAW controllers (Mackie HUI and the likes).
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For sure. Plugging in a MIDI controller into anything involves a lot of programming usually which means most people are not interested in it as you can't just plug in a controller and have it work out of the box in a sensible way.
 
laxu said:
Nah, it should keep the mappings but just have those mappings do nothing if the control does not exist. Having to redo the mappings is far more of a problem than them being non-functional. Global mappings would also be useful so you don't need to do them for every preset.
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Yeah, amen to both!

laxu said:
Is there still even one device implementing MIDI 2.0? Maybe in the synth world?
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Most likely. Not exactly aware of the entire episode, though.
 
laxu said:
Does it still ditch all block MIDI mappings if you switch models? That was always an insanely stupid "feature" to me and made MIDI knob control largely useless on Helix.
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It's not a feature; it's the fact that a preset can have as many delay blocks as you have DSP for, and some delays have multiple and disparate feedbacks, times, mixes, etc. We could certainly dumb things down and limit everything to one or two delays (can't run out of CCs!) and ensure they all have the same parameters in the same order, but that's a big ask... just to facilitate more consistent external MIDI control for the 0.2% of users hooking up knob controllers.

Not saying things couldn't be improved further (we have plenty of ideas), but a pedal that runs one effect at a time OBVIOUSLY works by a very different set of rules. Indeed, DL4 MkII's MIDI implementation is very different from that of Helix/HX.

Yes, MIDI 2.0 may improve things considerably.
laxu said:
Is there still even one device implementing MIDI 2.0? Maybe in the synth world?
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Roland's A-88 MkII controller is "MIDI 2.0-ready," but AFAIK, that's it.
 
Digital Igloo said:
It's not a feature; it's the fact that a preset can have as many delay blocks as you have DSP for, and some delays have multiple and disparate feedbacks, times, mixes, etc. We could certainly dumb things down and limit everything to one or two delays (can't run out of CCs!) and ensure they all have the same parameters in the same order, but that's a big ask... just to facilitate more consistent external MIDI control for the 0.2% of users hooking up knob controllers.

Not saying things couldn't be improved further (we have plenty of ideas), but a pedal that runs one effect at a time OBVIOUSLY works by a very different set of rules. Indeed, DL4 MkII's MIDI implementation is very different from that of Helix/HX.
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Yes, a single fx pedal is obviously a much easier case, I highlighted Strymon just because their implementation works in a way that does allow for pretty extensive remote control. Just as a test I made my Stream Deck Plus not only control several secondary parameters on my Nightsky but also display and track their values. Worked across preset changes and everything.

Ditching all the mappings when you change the model in the same block to me makes no sense. If you have a delay, you are going to have a lot of the same parameters even if you change it from Transistor Tape to Simple Delay or something. With the default functionality of "change the model if you accidentally bump the joystick knob" it was way too easy to remove all the work you did mapping MIDI in the first place.

Fractal is even worse when external modifiers remove the ability to control that parameter from any other source, including Axe-Edit and onboard UI. Plus there's no way to quickly disable the modifier either. It's clearly designed for automated stuff like LFOs and never made to work for external controllers.

This is real chicken and egg stuff. People don't use it because it's hard to setup or does not work right, so developers don't put any effort improving it.
 
Digital Igloo said:
It's not a feature; it's the fact that a preset can have as many delay blocks as you have DSP for, and some delays have multiple and disparate feedbacks, times, mixes, etc. We could certainly dumb things down and limit everything to one or two delays (can't run out of CCs!) and ensure they all have the same parameters in the same order, but that's a big ask... just to facilitate more consistent external MIDI control for the 0.2% of users hooking up knob controllers.
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Well on the other hand, not dumbing it down would facilitate MIDI mapping for whom...? The 0.002% of users hooking up MIDI controllers for a HX preset with 10 delays?
 
laxu said:
Fractal is even worse when external modifiers remove the ability to control that parameter from any other source, including Axe-Edit and onboard UI.
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WHUT?!? For real? Not that I wouldn't believe you, but it's tough to even imagine this...
 
laxu said:
Yes, a single fx pedal is obviously a much easier case, I highlighted Strymon just because their implementation works in a way that does allow for pretty extensive remote control. Just as a test I made my Stream Deck Plus not only control several secondary parameters on my Nightsky but also display and track their values. Worked across preset changes and everything.
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Stream Decks' MIDI only supports PCs, CCs, and notes, right? Individual pedals almost never have more than 128 parameters, but professional multieffects will almost always surpass this by default, especially given that so many CCs are reserved for common global functions. Roland/BOSS products dig deep into RPN, NRPN, and SysEx (because that's how their editors communicate), but those are far beyond the scope of your average guitarist's capabilities.
laxu said:
Ditching all the mappings when you change the model in the same block to me makes no sense. If you have a delay, you are going to have a lot of the same parameters even if you change it from Transistor Tape to Simple Delay or something.
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Not necessarily. Some delays have multiple times, feedbacks, mixes, etc. Times can be set to ms, 0.0-10.0, or note values. Some times are set by separate Delay Division parameters. Even if you ignore MIDI for delays with special cases, the experience of "wait, why is this delay ignoring my knob?" is yet another weird caveat we have to discuss in depth in a manual that no one reads.

I'll agree friction may exist for the 0.2% and again, we have ideas (and perhaps even solutions defined), but they don't necessarily utilize the methodology suggested.
 
Digital Igloo said:
Stream Decks' MIDI only supports PCs, CCs, and notes, right? Individual pedals almost never have more than 128 parameters, but professional multieffects will almost always surpass this by default, especially given that so many CCs are reserved for common global functions. Roland/BOSS products dig deep into RPN, NRPN, and SysEx (because that's how their editors communicate), but those are far beyond the scope of your average guitarist's capabilities.

Not necessarily. Some delays have multiple times, feedbacks, mixes, etc. Times can be set to ms, 0.0-10.0, or note values. Some times are set by separate Delay Division parameters. Even if you ignore MIDI for delays with special cases, the experience of "wait, why is this delay ignoring my knob?" is yet another weird caveat we have to discuss in depth in a manual that no one reads.

I'll agree friction may exist for the 0.2% and again, we have ideas (and perhaps even solutions defined), but they don't necessarily utilize the methodology suggested.
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Stream Deck MIDI plugin actually supports Sysex too, not in any particularly great way though. I used it here simply as an example as it was easy to program and had a display to use with the new Plus model that has 4 encoders. I used the Strymons as a testbed to see what it could do.

I consider MIDI to be a bit of an expert feature anyway so "why is this ignoring my knob" is fine. I actually wrote a software to translate MIDI CC mappings to Axe-Fx 2 Sysex commands to control almost any parameter on it. Never finished it because I sold the Axe-Fx 2 but it worked well and in my use the "this knob does nothing" was a complete non-issue as I could easily see "ok, this effect does not exist in this preset so it's not going to work".

But to use a much easier example, if I change from a Drive model to another drive, the parameters in most cases remain the same so MIDI mappings should be retained too even if you change from a Scream 808 to Stupor OD . I don't think some "map to the new model's Nth parameter" would be too bad either as a workaround when parameters don't match. I get my usecase here is a simplistic 1 CC = 1 param.
 
laxu said:
Stream Deck MIDI plugin actually supports Sysex too, not in any particularly great way though. I used it here simply as an example as it was easy to program and had a display to use with the new Plus model that has 4 encoders. I used the Strymons as a testbed to see what it could do.

I consider MIDI to be a bit of an expert feature anyway so "why is this ignoring my knob" is fine. I actually wrote a software to translate MIDI CC mappings to Axe-Fx 2 Sysex commands to control almost any parameter on it. Never finished it because I sold the Axe-Fx 2 but it worked well and in my use the "this knob does nothing" was a complete non-issue as I could easily see "ok, this effect does not exist in this preset so it's not going to work".

But to use a much easier example, if I change from a Drive model to another drive, the parameters in most cases remain the same so MIDI mappings should be retained too even if you change from a Scream 808 to Stupor OD . I don't think some "map to the new model's Nth parameter" would be too bad either as a workaround when parameters don't match. I get my usecase here is a simplistic 1 CC = 1 param.
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Yep, totally get it.

Generally, we approach each new feature design less like "let's do this to appease our power users" and more like "how do we make this power user feature so simple that anyone could use it—but cool enough that everyone wants to use it?" One example: others had done a variation of scenes before, but they were always hidden in menus. We dug in, figured out the real problems to solve, looked at how scenes worked in our StageScape M20d mixer, flipped the whole thing on its head, pulled everything front and center, and released snapshots with 2.0.
 
Digital Igloo said:
Generally, we approach each new feature design less like "let's do this to appease our power users" and more like "how do we make this power user feature so simple that anyone could use it—but cool enough that everyone wants to use it?"
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Maybe, for a start, try that approach on your update tactics (the actual update process that is)...

SCNR
 
Getting a little OT here (well, not really, as you're involved in this just as much, as it seems), but anyway...

Digital Igloo said:
Sadly, that horse is out of the barn with how the architecture was designed many years ago. Believe me, it annoys us way more than it annoys you.
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It's not particularly annoying me (I usually find my way around things) - but IMO Line 6 could do quite something regarding customer care once an update is due.
As you may or may not have noticed, I wrote a rather extensive post on the Line 6 forums, trying to adress as many issues re: "what if your update goes wrong?" as possible. This seemed to have helped tons of folks (and not for the first time, it's just for the first time I slapped all that information into one thread).
And no, just so you don't misunderstand me, while - being an old-ish hippie and all that - I sort of believe in karma, I'm not trying to pat myself on the back at all. What I'm saying is that this should be a Line 6 duty.
It's absolutely clear that it's not always the users fault when an update goes wrong, yet some folks (especially the L6 fanboys) are trying to make it look like that. In fact, it seems to happen pretty often that units appear to be bricked, even if people followed the update instructions literally. And even in case previous updates worked absolutely flawless (such as in my case - but with one 3.x update all of a sudden things went completely upside down).
The least Line 6 could (or rather should) do here would be to write a decent article about how to rescue yourself from a bricked update. But there's no such a thing. If I was Line 6, I'd possibly ditch the "HX Edit does it all automatically" update thing entirely. Write a well-composed instruction about how to do it using the Line 6 Updater in offline mode and you'll be fine (and while you're at it, make sure that HX Edit under Windows isn't running as a service in the background anymore once you close it, otherwise the Line 6 Updater won't work). It'll likely even save you hours of support hotline phone calls, quite a win-win situation here.

Ah well, back to more interesting things.
 
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