Automation vs Tap Dancing

[metropolis_4]

How much automation do you like to have in managing your sounds?

This applies to using digital modelers as well. Do you like having all sounds pre-built and recalled using Scenes/MIDI, do you prefer to do everything manually, or some combination?

I’ve always struggled to find the right balance.

Having everything manual gives flexibility for creativity and making changes on the spot, but the trade off is more to toggle and it can be impossible to change everything fast enough.

Having everything automated makes it easy to cycle through pre-programmed sounds for every song, but it restricts you to using the pre-defined sounds with no room for creativity.

 

[OrganicZed]

I use one amp sound (usually a plexi) and then control the transition between clean and rhythm crunch with my guitar volume to control. My scenes are configured with various combinations of effects and boosts as I often use them. I also have a button on my FC to toggle between scenes view and effects view so I can manage the effects on the fly for when one of my preconfigured scenes isn't quite what I want for the moment.

If I were playing the same setlist for multiple weeks on end and the opportunity existed to have the source MIDI clock control my preset and scene changes, I'd probably do that. I have never played live with a click track, so it isn't an option to get to that level of precision with my sounds.

I get what you're saying about the losing the freedom to be creative in the moment. I think my current approach is a good balance to that concern while still getting many of the benefits of preset sounds.

 

[DrewJD82]

I’m a huge fans of Presets w/ Instant Access options available. This is where the layouts on Fractal gear really come in handy, switching from Scenes to Effects just for that purpose.

Even when I was rocking a Ground Control Pro w/ rack gear I always took the 4 preset/8 Instant Access option because that aspect of “Hmm, think I’ll throw a phaser on for shits and giggles” is important enough to me.

I was trying to explain this to my singer at a recent practice, there’s parts in our songs I’ll sometimes use a wah as a filter effect for, slowly rocking it back and forth, or I might just switch on a phaser or flanger. He noticed I was doing something different and asked if I was still figuring it out and I was like “Nah, there’s nothing to ‘figure out’, it’s a part with an effect, what that effect happens to be is whatever I’ll pick at the time”

 

[metropolis_4]

I’m a huge fans of Presets w/ Instant Access options available. This is where the layouts on Fractal gear really come in handy, switching from Scenes to Effects just for that purpose.

Even when I was rocking a Ground Control Pro w/ rack gear I always took the 4 preset/8 Instant Access option because that aspect of “Hmm, think I’ll throw a phaser on for shits and giggles” is important enough to me.

I was trying to explain this to my singer at a recent practice, there’s parts in our songs I’ll sometimes use a wah as a filter effect for, slowly rocking it back and forth, or I might just switch on a phaser or flanger. He noticed I was doing something different and asked if I was still figuring it out and I was like “Nah, there’s nothing to ‘figure out’, it’s a part with an effect, what that effect happens to be is whatever I’ll pick at the time”

That’s exactly the kind of flexibility I worry about losing. And for me one of the big benefits of using a pedalboard is having the ability to do that on the spot if I come up with an idea mid-show.

 

[DrewJD82]

That’s exactly the kind of flexibility I worry about losing. And for me one of the big benefits of using a pedalboard is having the ability to do that on the spot if I come up with an idea mid-show.

I’m hoping Morningstar has some options to get around being locked into presets for this exact reason. It won’t be a major bummer if not, I might just double up on pedals for some loops and remember I have to hit the pedals instead of the MIDI switcher.

 

[metropolis_4]

I’m hoping Morningstar has some options to get around being locked into presets for this exact reason. It won’t be a major bummer if not, I might just double up on pedals for some loops and remember I have to hit the pedals instead of the MIDI switcher.

I’m thinking through the same things. Like I’ll probably put my drive pedals all in one loop so I can easily toggle the whole thing on/off but then be able to hit the pedals to choose what combination of them are on.

I think Morningstar has potential to be extremely flexible in this. I’m thinking I could have one bank that has everything organized in Presets/Scenes, then have another bank that is individual on/off switches for each effect. That way I can choose which way I want to control it, and I could even choose per song if I want. It would also be really easy to toggle to a page of individual switches to “override” a Scene by manually selecting a different combination of pedals.

I also figure I’ll have a “panick” switch that just turns on every loop and then I can manually control everything from the pedals themselves.

 

[DrewJD82]

I’m thinking through the same things. Like I’ll probably put my drive pedals all in one loop so I can easily toggle the whole thing on/off but then be able to hit the pedals to choose what combination of them are on.

I think Morningstar has potential to be extremely flexible in this. I’m thinking I could have one bank that has everything organized in Presets/Scenes, then have another bank that is individual on/off switches for each effect. That way I can choose which way I want to control it, and I could even choose per song if I want. It would also be really easy to toggle to a page of individual switches to “override” a Scene by manually selecting a different combination of pedals.

I also figure I’ll have a “panick” switch that just turns on every loop and then I can manually control everything from the pedals themselves.

Hell, their MIDI switchers are small enough I might just see if I can put 2 on the board, one strictly instant access and the other for presets/scenes.

Hahahahaha and this is the kind of functionality I originally looked at a modeler to solve!

 

[Orvillain]

Is a good question.

I started off with tap dancing. Put together a ridiculously huge board with a Musicomlabs switcher, with the idea that every sound was just a preset. Hated it. So then I went back to tap dancing. Then years later, I tried again with a switcher. This time it was Voodoo Labs stuff. I used the Control Switchers and a Commander. Commander to bring up 'scenes' on the board, and control switchers to bring in and each individual effect if I wanted it. Honestly, it was pretty great and defined so much of what I look for to this day.

But I got bored of never having trails, and the commander was limiting. I tried to go up to a Ground Control Pro, but found it to be too much. Great kit though.

So eventually, I went back to single tap dancing. Until Helix came along. Then I used snapshots on Helix from 2016 through to 2022.

At the moment I have a Gigrig G3, but I just don't use it for anything more than comparing pedals. Weird right?! I'm gonna sell it. I originally got it because I thought it would be a way to try to go into the world of "one preset per sound" approach. I also had ideas about a stereo rig.

But I think I've learned - I actually don't want that. It is too much of a pain in the boycunt to setup, and when you wanna change something, you're up shits creek with only Robert De Niro for company. And he'll eat your flesh given half a chance. Psycho.

So I think for me, having a few snapshots and a few effects enable/bypass switches, is kinda the best balance. The snapshots switch the amp. The effects switches switch the effects. I generally always want delay and reverb on a clean for example, so I don't even usually bother adding those to an 'IA' switch. Instead I just have dedicated blocks for clean that turn off when I go over to distortion.

But because I do use spacey effects into the front of my amps, I do need some options that I can kick in and out as I require.

On Helix I used to have the bottom 4 snapshots as clean/crunch/HG/Solo .... and the top 4 switches were for the various effects for that song that I needed.

 

[itchyfingers]

My home board is mission control and I use a G3 Atom switcher and an HXFX, but that just seems like too many opportunities for a cable failure at a gig, aka a troubleshooting nightmare.

My gig board for the band is 8 pedals, all manual, rarely have more than 2 FX activated at a time.

 

[gearJunkie]

Automation has its place, but relying on it for everything can be perilous when for some unknown reason it stops working as expected. It's always a good idea to practice without automation occasionally so you can perform effectively when forced to do everything manually.

 

[Sascha Franck]

I like hybrid setups (and wish more options to build one inside whatever all-in-one modeler would be available).
The setups I liked the most in terms of handling have been hybrid setups controlled by loopswitchers. The on/off status of the loops would then be switched per patch (and in an older rack based setup I also used MIDI to control things) while I am still able to modify the "content" of whatever loops. As an example: A dirt amp loop would have multiple dirt pedals in it that I would then pre-select. Same for the modulation loop. Or for the "spatial" (mainly delay and reverb) loop.
This allows me to still switch pretty quickly between very different patches (such as a clean phaser sound to a ripping lead with delay) while still giving me plenty of flexibility - which would require *tons* of patches in a setup with everything programmed.
Yes, it's a little more tap dancing than a fully programmable setup and it also requires me to remember things I have to preselect, but for me it's a pretty perfect balance that way.

 

[Sidler72]

Depends on the song really. I have some presets that are song specific that I use scenes for but most of my other presets ( which isn’t many) is just base sounds with most of the switches dedicated to effects. Anytime I can improvise or throw in a little flavor with an effect I try to but I think there is certain songs that follow the “if it ain’t broke don’t fix it philosophy.

 

[Alex Kenivel]

A little bit of both..

As a young'un I started with a basic pedalboard that grew to be unruly. I didn't know what a loop switcher was at the time and resorted to wearing big work boots to hit 4+ pedals at a time. I started to research a solution, went down the rabbit hole, and ended up turning to digital multifx.

By the time I got a Helix Floor, about a year after release, I embraced the hybrid Snap/Stomp logic to have less tap dancing but still have some freedom to fuck around.
I started a band with some guys and wrote some pretty intricate stuff whilst on the hunt for a singer. We never found one, but we did find a gig that meant someone (me) had to step up and play all these notes and sing at the same time.
The Snap/Stomp paradigm went right out the window because I didn't have time to look down to figure out which mode I was in so I'd set my snapshots up in reverse sequence and used the Snapshot Down button to cycle through the different song parts, leaving every other footswitch alone or blank so I didn't accidentally hit anything I didn't want to.
It felt a little silly using just a single footswitch and the expression pedal (all the way on the other side) of the Helix but our only gig went well performance-wise (the underpowered FoH and direct sunlight are another story!).

If I'm using my HX stomp standalone, I'll keep things simple and stay inside the proverbial box. I have gone a little nuts in the past programming the Stomp right up to its neck with effects like the 3OSC, for example, changing chords under my playing during a song intro but the mental gymnastics surrounding all that programming usually aren't my favorite pastime. With the Helix Floor or Axe3 I have a little more freedom to have scenes or snapshots that I want and still have switches for toggling effects or modulating parameters.

In the funk band I was in, our show was basically on Rails with backing tracks so there wasn't a whole lot of room for improvisation. We were doing covers, I mostly used my Stomp DI and I never cared about getting an exact tone or anything, so I would live on two presets most of the time, toggling in between them. I had a 3rd preset for Bowie's Let's Dance but the main two were a cleaner amp and a dirtier amp with all of the same effects in both.

For the last band I was in, we did a lot of Improv and I used my Stomp as a mini pedalboard into the front of an amp. This leant me a little more freedom compared to the funk band but I was still pretty limited unless I wanted to engage in those mental gymnastics I'm not extremely fond of.

With my Helix Floor or Axe FX 3 I have enough foot switches, layouts, and processing power to have some things pre-programmed and other things available for on the fly fun, especially when utilizing Helix's favorites and user defaults. I'm not afraid to edit my signal chain and call up different effects in the middle of a song as long as I am used to the onboard UI. I'm not quite there with the Axe FX yet but I am realizing the potential of the layouts and switching commands, and with gapless switching the mental gymnastics would be lessened.

 

[HotRats]

I've answered "automate all" but truth is that's not that simple it really depends on the band/context and there's no perfect solution but if I feel like automating things is what is needed I'd certainly go for it and try to automate everything.

In the beginning I had an analog switcher and pedals and did some preset stuff, just the basic sounds (clean, crunch, lead) and left fxs out of the looper.

Then came the helix.

I've played with full automated, one preset per song for years, using the helix, and it worked perfectly with that band.

Wit the helix you can assign whatever you want on the available 10 foot switches so I had one switch per song section (using snapshots) and used the free ones to have manual access to some things (like the volume boost) - just in case, and one switch set to recall the next song in the list.
It was fast, practical but a lot of work to setup and maintain.

With the current band it is impossible to approach things the same way and I don't feel like to do it anyway

Initially I used the helix for fxs and set it up like an analog board with two main loops (clean & dirt) with few fxs per loop I could turn on and off manually and used a switch used to toggle between the clean & dirty loop (and amp channel).
I also set up an expression pedal for controlling delay times and mix, a pedal (EHX cntrl knob) to toggle between fast & slow on the rotary FX and third exp pedal for the wah.

This A/B approach with some extra control worked really good and limit tap dancing to some extent.

But then, in the end, it was still overcomplicated for this band and therefore I've moved back to an analog board with few pedals and massive use my volume control for clean sounds.