Amp vs. Modeler anyone else notice this?

[Bob Zaod]

I cant say I have ever noticed this before. Maybe because I generally settle on one way and stick with it for a good amount of time but after using my Helix LT in 4cm with my Palomino this past week or so, when I try to run direct only through the PA like I have done hundreds of times, all of the cabs and IR's sound nasally no matter what I do. Even turned up to gig volumes. Does get a little better turned up but the only way it sounds good to me now is clean. Any type of gain past edge of breakup just sounds so nasally. Tried at least 6 amps and a bunch of cabs and IR's.


It is so marked that I thought maybe I accidentally engaged the wah or had some weird EQ settings in the mixer but nope. I am starting to understand why some folks say it sounds fake or digital compared to going through a real cab and amp. Funny thing is I never noticed it when using an amp just as a power amp, only when using 4cm. I've even experienced the opposite in the past where I felt like going direct was more pleasing than using an amp. I have chuckled at people in the past who claim similar stuff. Psycho Acoustics? I dunno what to think now. What I know is 4cm just sounds so much better to me.

 

[Mongillo19]

The issue is when you ask someone (not talking about you) what makes it sound fake, you could varying reasons why and some contradict themselves lol

I'm assuming you've tried different IR makers

 

[mavrick102000]

I know what you're referring to. Our ears get used to the modeling and IR's and then we're good. But going back to an amp sometimes gives a little bit of those other frequencies back, that make the modellng w/IR mess with our heads/ears.

I realized it with the ToneX pedal and captures. I still enjoy my Helix patches, but to say a Tone Model with it's cab doesn't sound just even a little bit different from how I setup my default patches on Helix with IR's or their cabs would be silly. If I wanted to tweak them I could put some of those frequencies back, but just not worth it for me at the end of the day.

If I want something with a hair more thud to it I have choices and I enjoy them both.

 

[the-trooper]

when I try to run direct only through the PA like I have done hundreds of times, all of the cabs and IR's sound nasally no matter what I do.

Change the PA.

 

[Bob Zaod]

Change the PA.

Well I could I guess but I'm not going to change it for just guitar tones. I have multiple PA systems but this is my rehearsal PA.

 

[Orvillain]

I can't let go of amps honestly. There's just something visceral and primal about them. Those are wank words, but they're the best I've got. I love all this modelling and capturing and recording tech. But stood in front of a cranked amp and 4x12... delishima!

 

[the-trooper]

Well I could I guess but I'm not going to change it for just guitar tones. I have multiple PA systems but this is my rehearsal PA.

At least try it on a different one before concluding it's the modelers fault, while using the same playback device all the time.
We've all seen frequency graphs changing when changing speakers, microphones, adding EQs...
I find it hard to believe there's a certain "nasally" frequency present that can't be dialed out, unless there's one link in the chain that hasn't been ruled out (the PA).

 

[Mongillo19]

I can't let go of amps honestly. There's just something visceral and primal about them. Those are wank words, but they're the best I've got. I love all this modelling and capturing and recording tech. But stood in front of a cranked amp and 4x12... delishima!

Do you feel like the amps still have that special sauce if run into a loadbox vs their digital counterparts?

 

[Orvillain]

Do you feel like the amps still have that special sauce if run into a loadbox vs their digital counterparts?

No, I think it's just different. I don't expect guitar coming through speaker monitors to be the same as it coming through a cab. Just different perspectives on the same thing.

 

[Alex Kenivel]

Could be the sound of a mic on a speaker that doesn't do it for you?

 

[JoKeR III]

Are you sure the cab is turned on in the Helix?

 

[James Freeman]

Psycho Acoustics?

Yes.
The more you listen the more your brain considers the sound as 'normal', aka break-in, this is an involuntary phenomenon, you can't bypass it, trick it or quicken the process, all you have to do is casually listen to the new system.
Also, your brain 'forgets' the sound if you don't use that particular system for some time.
It happens with Monitors, Guitar Cabs, Stereo Systems, PA Systems, etc. basically anything that reproduces sound.

Best advice?
Stick to favorite sound systems for the long term, like one favorite guitar cab and a good pair of studio monitors and listen to them often.
edit: and IRs too.

 

[laxu]

Can't agree with OP's premise. I've been able to make multiple modelers sound just great and not really much different from real tube amps. Whether the setups were running into fullrange speakers with cab sims or real guitar cabs.

If you rely on house PA then you might get whatever. I found that bringing my own monitoring setup was always a better option - which granted does reduce the benefit vs hauling a tube amp.

I've found myself actually preferring the miced sound of IRs through fullrange systems these days. There's just more ways to shape that sound to your preference and less issues with "took a few steps and now it's dull or harsh".

 

[Bob Zaod]

I've found myself actually preferring the miced sound of IRs through fullrange systems these days.

Been there also. As I mentioned in my post. Not really an agree/disagree thing. I was asking about this phenomena. Also what I didn't mention is the amps all sounded the same to me which is even stranger. Revv Red, Placater Dirty, Angl Meteor, Vitriol Lead and Cali IV lead. I even stripped it down to amp>cab at one point. Gonna try again today and see if anything has changed.

 

[Bob Zaod]

Are you sure the cab is turned on in the Helix?

Yeah. I know that sound when it's not. That terrible bee buzzing sound.

 

[laxu]

Been there also. As I mentioned in my post. Not really an agree/disagree thing. I was asking about this phenomena. Also what I didn't mention is the amps all sounded the same to me which is even stranger. Revv Red, Placater Dirty, Angl Meteor, Vitriol Lead and Cali IV lead. I even stripped it down to amp>cab at one point. Gonna try again today and see if anything has changed.

Global EQ? Tried different cables?

 

[Bob Zaod]

I can't let go of amps honestly. There's just something visceral and primal about them. Those are wank words, but they're the best I've got. I love all this modelling and capturing and recording tech. But stood in front of a cranked amp and 4x12... delishima!

Yep after going back to using a good amp, it's tough to get away from it. You nailed it really it's visceral.

 

[the-trooper]

You nailed it really it's visceral.

@DrewJD82 They're singing strident, haunting and stentorious song!

 

[DrewJD82]

I’d try shooting IR’s of your actual cab and using that to iron out the differences between the two.

 

[Bob Zaod]

I’d try shooting IR’s of your actual cab and using that to iron out the differences between the two.

Never tried. Well scratch that I did make a reverb IR once many years ago.