Adventures in Fractal's Dual Rectifiers

[SwirlyMaple]

My suspicion is it's the master volume. Here's my Recto run through the X-Load UK setting against 2 instances of Recto 1 Red (same knob settings, speaker page adjusted with matching SIC and speaker parameters zero'd) - one with MV at 0.5, the other with MV at 2.



No prizes for guessing which one has the higher MV setting.

Hmm… maybe I’m dense, but I’m still puzzled by this.

I’m assuming the much darker clip at the end was the Axe-FX with MV at 2, and the bit immediately preceding it was the real Recto, also with MV of 2.

But if the Axe-FX MV was an inauthentic taper, I’d expect it to be more linear, meaning it shouldn’t crush down like we’re hearing until it’s much higher than the real amp’s MV.

It sounds like the opposite is happening, if that darkening really is a result of excessive MV.

 

[James Freeman]

I think the model doesn't have the loop circuitry modeled along with the second master volume.
Maybe it's a combination of the SIC/Cab and the single master volume.
Hard bypass the loop on the real amp + load box, I suspect this will be much closer to Fractal's model.

 

[2112]

Loop on my amp was bypassed there and the MV on the amp was around 10 o'clock which is right where that particular amp falls to pieces.

For anyone interested in which is which

Spoiler

Real amp, Axe-Fx MV at 0.5, Axe-Fx MV 2

 

[James Freeman]

I'm not sure why I put it in the preamp page. Never thought about until now.

When power amp modeling is Off the PI High Cut Frequency is also defeated.
Maybe the Power Amp page will be a better place for it where it makes sense?

 

[deathbyguitar]

Recto 2 is the Multi-Watt version, correct? I always liked that one best because of how hairy and less behaved it is.

 

[James Freeman]

Loop bypassed and MV on 10 o'clock

Interesting, that's about 3, still plenty of sizzle.

 

[2112]

Interesting, that's about 3, still plenty of sizzle.

It's a weird amp. Serial number falls into the Rev G era but it's got the Rev F faceplate. The switching relays and power supply was pretty cooked when I got it and it needed to have the footswitch connected just to pass sound of any kind. My tech managed to sort it and changed the loop to a series loop, but when the loop is engaged with nothing connected the fx send level, channel volume and master all interact with one another. The MV taper goes from nothing to "oh yeah that's a Recto" to "MAXIMUM BLOAT" over a really small range. It's probably even more fiddly to dial in than my mark IV.

 

[dean701]

It's a weird amp. Serial number falls into the Rev G era but it's got the Rev F faceplate. The switching relays and power supply was pretty cooked when I got it and it needed to have the footswitch connected just to pass sound of any kind. My tech managed to sort it and changed the loop to a series loop, but when the loop is engaged with nothing connected the fx send level, channel volume and master all interact with one another. The MV taper goes from nothing to "oh yeah that's a Recto" to "MAXIMUM BLOAT" over a really small range. It's probably even more fiddly to dial in than my mark IV.

this is what I was thinking as everyone was fighting through the TMP parade. It's one thing to say that one modeler sounds more true to its real version and another if those modeling it are replicating suboptimal settings. some amps are very finicky. Historically when certain modelers have come out, people have complained about certain amp models not being right, not just Fender.

 

[the-trooper]

Gotta be honest... FM3 is sounding a bit TMP in this particular comparison

 

[MirrorProfiles]

My suspicion is it's the master volume. Here's my Recto (bold, silicon rectification) run through the X-Load UK setting against 2 instances of Recto 1 Red (same knob settings, speaker page adjusted with matching SIC and speaker parameters zero'd) - one with MV at 0.5, the other with MV at 2.



No prizes for guessing which one has the higher MV setting.

Have you got a Recto cab you can try as a load for the amp? I feel like if I use a load box I can probably match them closer as most roll off in this fizz area, matching the sound with the cab load is really what I’m after.

You could also try matching with the NAM model I posted, that was made with a Recto cab load and the settings in OP.

Loop is disengaged on mine, I tried insanely low levels on the Fractal model too (settings in my clips are around 0.5) but no dice. Also my MV setting on the amp was below 9 o clock, so maybe that’s why yours sounds a bit less bright?

 

[Orvillain]

I know the amp is heavey af, Cliff might not like pulling it out of storage.

Yknow, it is actually lighter than my JVM and my VH4!

 

[Orvillain]

I've got a 2018 3-channel multi-watt Recto. I'll do some sweeps today and throw them in this 'ere thread for thready boys interested in recto toys.

 

[Orvillain]

So... real 3-channel multi-watt Recto. Red Modern. With these settings:
Dual Recto Red Modern:
Bass - noon
Mid - 1 o'clock
Treble - 2 o'clock
Gain - 1 o'clock
Presence - 3 o'clock
FX Loop Bypassed
Bold mode
Diode mode
Load - Egnater Tourmaster 4x12 V30 16ohms

The only thing changing is the master volume. Now even with the data un-aligned, you can see the louder the amp gets the more rounded and smoothed out the lows and highs become.

Here is the data aligned to the peak at 637hz:

So I would say, 10 o'clock and above on the master, the Recto definitely affects your low and high end. Below that value, for me it is much of a muchness.

 

[Orvillain]

And here is the above, but also contrasted with the Axe FX III's 'Recto2 Red Modern' channel, which is the closest equivalent to my real Recto that the Axe has:

 

[FractalAudio]

Mines a Rev G, but I’ve had it side by side with others and none have been flatter in the top end like this.

I’m wondering if it’s another where it could be to do with the FX loop/channel master/global master, or whether it’s a something impedance related in the power amp.

Either way, it’s an amp that has a particular sound when paired with a Mesa cab - no load box quite does it justice in the same way because of the lack of NFB. I’m not sure if it just needs certain conditions to expose the differences.



Thanks!

The loop changes the tone considerably, even if not used. If you engage it the tone gets thinner. This is from my modeling notes:
// NOTE!!! The loop changes the tone significantly. Be sure to turn the loop off when
// comparing tone. When doing measurements using the loop note that there is a ~40 Hz
// HPF on the send.

 

[Orvillain]

The loop changes the tone considerably, even if not used. If you engage it the tone gets thinner. This is from my modeling notes:
// NOTE!!! The loop changes the tone significantly. Be sure to turn the loop off when
// comparing tone. When doing measurements using the loop note that there is a ~40 Hz
// HPF on the send.

100%. It is fairly audible in the room too, don't even have to measure it.

 

[MirrorProfiles]

The loop changes the tone considerably, even if not used. If you engage it the tone gets thinner. This is from my modeling notes:
// NOTE!!! The loop changes the tone significantly. Be sure to turn the loop off when
// comparing tone. When doing measurements using the loop note that there is a ~40 Hz
// HPF on the send.

Yep, loop is bypassed here

 

[FractalAudio]

When was the last time you retubed it? TBH the Axe-Fx sounds much better IMO. It's beefy and thick like a good Recto should sound. Your amp sounds anemic like the power tubes are worn out.

 

[MirrorProfiles]

I have Mesa stamped STR 443’s in there that I bought new and haven’t been used a ton (bought them in the last year or so and I’m not gigging/rehearsing with the amp so it doesn’t get used that much). I can check my 6L6 stash for others but these should be fresh and in the right bias range for the amp.

I would say that I can match the tone of the Fractal amp by turning the master up or using a reactive load. But I can’t get the same range of tones from the model.

I have also matched this amp in the room pretty closely to a Dual Rec MW and Triple Rec. The Line 6 model also gets close. In all of those cases, the master volume changes how much of that top end sizzle is there.

 

[James Freeman]

And here is the above, but also contrasted with the Axe FX III's 'Recto2 Red Modern' channel, which is the closest equivalent to my real Recto that the Axe has:
View attachment 15358

The graph is too busy with repeating colors, I can't see much.
So does your real recto matches the model at lower master volumes?