What's preventing you from getting a Helix Stadium?

[ian_dissonance]

If they would have just lied and said the old amp models are now Agourafied most people wouldn’t care, or notice. It’s so weird to me that the hang up for some is that the last gen modeling is in there like it was bad or something. There are lots of reasons it’s not for everyone, but that is a strange hill to stand on.

 

[paisleywookiee]

What caused me to cancel my preorder really doesn't have anything to do with the Stadium, as I think it sounds fantastic, and usability is amazing. It's more so my desire to try the "hybrid" approach of modeler+pedals, which I've not really done in quite awhile. Even then, it wasn't as extensive (with the HX Stomp).
I'll definitely be keeping my eye on it, and probably wind up with one later on.

 

[nightlight]

I have to admit, I'm not a fan of this new age of products being rushed out manufacturers' doors before all the bugs are ironed out or all the features are available.

I know Line 6 has a great track record of updates and adding features, but that is not what this is about.

I had a Quad Cortex for a while, but got a little tired of some really irritating issues, one being that the unit could not be properly grounded when using the 4CM, for example. This is despite trying to ground whatever was hooked up using the ground switches in the Helix, or on the amps that were being routed into the unit.

I've heard the newer units have less of these issues, or a lower noise floor at least.

I also splurged heavily on plugins for the Quad Cortex, and I was glad that most of mine have already been ported. But the pace of development at Neural DSP was really glacial until recently, when I started hearing users give positive comments on how usable the unit had become. It only took something like four years...

Despite that, I don't think anyone really raves about the FX on the QC, which is a shame.

In that regard, I'm wondering how early Helix Stadium adopters feel about their units. I have taken note about how this forum is largely slanted against Neural DSP while very positive about Line 6. So I'll take everything with a pinch of salt.

But the larger question is just this point about whether the release was rushed? I really detest being an alpha or beta tester for a product, companies should do that by themselves and in my opinion, if full price is being paid, the feature set should be ironed out already.

A case in point is the release of the Kemper 2. I've seen a lot of negative feedback about the new profiling not having been rolled out yet. And it turns out that if you have a Profiler Player, you get the new profiling tech. However, you have to pony up and pay for the upgrades, which I do not think is a fair business model at all, or at least that is my opinion of it. Is there any reason the Kemper Stage could not get these features, for example?

Have also noted that some users have also stated that the Agoura sounds on the Helix Stadium are pretty much on par with the QC. In fact, it seems that all the units appear to have hit "peak sound", at least as far as we know.

Do participate in the poll and let us know your thoughts.

 

[dbfretz]

The more i browse forums, the more i realize most guitar players don't know what the fuck they want HXS ticks basically every box people have been complaining about Helix (and modelers in general) for years, only to be received with "eh, i guess we wanted... more?"

Now, it might not be the device for you and that's fine - there's plenty of amazing competition out there. But i can't help to scratch my head reading comments of "bad tones", "no reliability", "lacks effects", "meh amp models" or "no captures" (!!!) - particularly from some who apparently have never used one.

I'm stoked about getting a non-XL HXS myself. It's pretty much the golilocks small-Helix-without-exp-pedal i've been waiting for years, and the *only* thing which gave me some pause was the launch price. But that ship has sadly sailed for the entire industry; see f.ex. the Quad Cortex Mini, which some here rave about, and is only 20% cheaper than HX Stadium Floor.

What they needed to do was improve the amp models, the later models in the previous units were getting there but with a new product they needed to launch with more than 16 imo. The satisfaction you get from loading up an amp in Fractal or a good capture in TONEX/NDSP is something they were badly missing. The new models are obviously a step forward.

No new effects or drives or reworks or literally anything just feels off when you’re asking 2k for a unit.

 

[Jarick]

Yeah honestly I’m a bit confused on the Agoura amps. If they are a big step forward why were there so few at launch? If they’re not a big step forward, why invest in the Stadium?

I don’t think it’s necessarily a line 6 problem either, I think it’s a challenge every manufacturer will face. How do you differentiate when there’s so many choices and you already have very mature products that are readily available at much lower prices, especially in a down economy?

From that standpoint it’s not surprising to see Fractal jumping into different hardware configs of existing platforms and then into software plugins.

 

[Lysander]

What they needed to do was improve the amp models, the later models in the previous units were getting there but with a new product they needed to launch with more than 16 imo.

You should look into how many new amp models other flagships launched with in recent years - it may surprise you.

 

[mikah912]

There are only two multi-generation flagship transitions in recent memory: The Helix Floor to Helix Stadium XL and the Axe-FX II to Axe-FX III.

In both cases, each succeeding flaship launched with very similar content to the preceding flagship, and was almost entirely set apart at launch by usability and features.

For reference, here's the press release for the Axe-FX III: https://reverb.com/news/fractal-audio-announces-axe-fx-iii-preamp-and-effects-processor

And in that press release, here's the entirety of new content namechecked:

Every effect has been updated and improved. Our acclaimed amp modeling is now better than ever and our award-winning effects are even more pristine and musical.

That's it. And I don't doubt for a second that Cliff meant it as he does enginewide tweaks all of the time, but it's undeniable that Fractal is held to a different standard.

 

[Mongillo19]

You should look into how many new amp models other flagships launched with in recent years - it may surprise you.

I know we are talking about NDSP but imo their amp models sound better than L6. So the need for more amp models or a new engine is not as "needed"

I know I'm talking to the wrong thread but I don't jive with L6 modeling (or at least the older amp models) when compared to fractal and NDSP. Just my option of course.

 

[Jynx]

Doug grabbed me in a headlock and said if he ever saw me near one he'd squeeze the life out of me.

 

[Sedaxel]

Now, it might not be the device for you and that's fine - there's plenty of amazing competition out there. But i can't help to scratch my head reading comments of "bad tones", "no reliability", "lacks effects", "meh amp models" or "no captures" (!!!) - particularly from some who apparently have never used one.

I guess I´m one of those who makes you scratch your head.

At least, I´m going to review the things I could´ve said (or not).

Bad tones: that wasn´t me.

No reliability: I said something in that way, yes. But as I said later, I can´t be sure of that, since I only was expressing something I thought I had read. Fair enough to forget the reliiability thing, if it´s working perfectly.

Lacks effects: not me either, I think. It´s just I don´t like L6 effects too much (just a personal taste). I like Zoom, NDSP or Boss more.

Meh amp models: you´re right in that I never used a Stadium. I used a Helix LT for several years. I´ve watched to quite a few videos (yeah, I know, that tells nothing... OK). And I read forums like this, when people seem to think that new amps (the very few there are) are not much improved from Hx ones. I can´t say this makes a 100% sure thinking, but yeah... I would consider, in my personal feeling of course, that amps are more a "meh" thing than a "the most expensive modeler for sale level" thing.

No captures: absolutely.

All of this is just my opinion, I´m not stating anything. Just talk about my feelings on a product that costs A LOT. And, at the same time, I´m absolutely convinced that it will become one of the best modelers ever... I just think that, currently, it´s not for me.

 

[mikah912]

I know we are talking about NDSP but imo their amp models sound better than L6. So the need for more amp models or a new engine is not as "needed"

I know I'm talking to the wrong thread but I don't jive with L6 modeling (or at least the older amp models) when compared to fractal and NDSP. Just my option of course.

He's talking about Axe-FX III, actually. The QC, by definition, launched with nothing but new amp models.

Everyone is fine to have opinions, and mine is that no modeling engine is monolithic, so people saying they think Company X's "models" are better than Company Y's are being reductive and oversimplifying.

There are some amps I like better on Quad Cortex, some I like better on FM9 and some I like better on both Helix/HX and Stadium/Agoura.

Ain't no company out here batting 1.000.

 

[Lysander]

I know we are talking about NDSP but imo their amp models sound better than L6. So the need for more amp models or a new engine is not as "needed"

I was not - ALL of the main players (old/new Helix, QC, Fender TMP, Headrush, and even the Mooer/NUX/Hotones of the world) launched with a roster of amps in the low 20s. I did check though, and CorOS 1.0.0 had a grand total of... 25 amps (19 for guitar + 6 for bass).

The sole exception is Fractal, but they don't redo things from scratch and work on constantly improving existing tech. I do recall many people vowed by the raw DSP power of the AxeFX III back when it first launched, but noting it sounded just as good as the II.

but imo their amp models sound better than L6

Well, to each their own I never really gelled with QC models and their exaggerated bass response.

 

[Lysander]

Doug grabbed me in a headlock and said if he ever saw me near one he'd squeeze the life out of me.

He's a big dude, man, be careful!

 

[Orvillain]

I do have faith that Line6 will deliver a lot over the coming decade.

 

[AlbertA]

Doug grabbed me in a headlock and said if he ever saw me near one he'd squeeze the life out of me.

Found Drew's alternate account ^^

 

[Sascha Franck]

Honestly I just feel like the market is over saturated.

Very likely.
And as you've also noted:

1. I need to solve a specific problem

Now, in case anyone is like me and has switched to digital for a while already (I know plenty of folks who have done just that), these very specific problems are either not existing or have been solved already. And as far as the Stadium goes, I can't see much real problems being solved.
Yes, editing is easier (I'd actually love that a whole lot myself), amp models are sounding better (wouldn't mind, either), but none of these should be much of an issue for anyone serious about their existing digital rigs (it certainly isn't for me).
So why would any of these kinda folks switch to a Stadium?

And fwiw, in general, I'm pretty much *the* target customer for a device such as the non-XL Stadium. Compact to travel with me anywhere, capable enough to suit any kinda gig, sounding great to fantastic. And for the most gigs I play, an all-in-one unit would be a somewhat better solution than what I currently use, as it'd be easier to program, keep track of things and save dedicated patches per each situation. But as I've sorted things out already, that's just not much of an issue anymore (and I think it's pretty much the same for quite some others).
So, in a nutshell: Apart from some easier handling and curiousity, there's no reasons for me to buy something else. And these aren't worth €1.800.

 

[Whizzinby]

As a passive onlooker, it seems to me that some of this is just a byproduct of releasing it before all the features were there. Seems to me that the launch timed with Proxy, which would have put Showcase in the launch software too, would have landed it a little more ready to flex its next-gen’ness.

So you take the gap between announcement and shipping… the features not being entirely there… plus the inevitable bugs… it was never going to completely put its best foot forward out of the gate.

But it’s L6. You know those dudes are going to aggressively develop that thing forever. If you were a happy OG Helix user, then you’re probably happy to be on the ride. If you were looking to be swayed from the outside looking in, just wait until the thing hits its stride.

 

[mbenigni]

I am almost certainly in the 0.01% of users, and perhaps an exception here because Showcase is something that could be really useful to me.

I would like new FX on the lines of the EH xxx9 series, or the IOS App MIDI Guitar 2 to avoid some current latency with running USB “FX Loops” via an iPad Pro, but that is not critical - what I have works.

The deal breaker for me is the lack of support for my JTV-69

100% to all of this. And I don't want to hang a D10 box off the back just to add VDI. If it comes to that, I'll keep swapping batteries and running guitar audio over 1/4"

As for Showcase... yes, this is what won me over at first. Then I realized that Moises and/or Camelot were already fitting the bill, and keeping these subsystems modular/ non-integrated was actually probably more convenient. (At least until there's a iPadOS editor/ control surface app for Stadium.) It's similar to this thing I do over and over where I fall in love with an amp model/capture, decide I should buy that amp, and then remember how illogical it is to buy something because you're already happy with what you have.

Now, if Line 6 could deliver effective guitar-to-MIDI or wide-ranging polyphonic synthesis of real-world instruments (i.e. sample or physical modeling-based), that would be a value-add I couldn't ignore.

 

[Boudoir Guitar]

The more i browse forums, the more i realize most guitar players don't know what the fuck they want HXS ticks basically every box people have been complaining about Helix (and modelers in general) for years, only to be received with "eh, i guess we wanted... more?"

Now, it might not be the device for you and that's fine - there's plenty of amazing competition out there. But i can't help to scratch my head reading comments of "bad tones", "no reliability", "lacks effects", "meh amp models" or "no captures" (!!!) - particularly from some who apparently have never used one.

I'm stoked about getting a non-XL HXS myself. It's pretty much the golilocks small-Helix-without-exp-pedal i've been waiting for years, and the *only* thing which gave me some pause was the launch price. But that ship has sadly sailed for the entire industry; see f.ex. the Quad Cortex Mini, which some here rave about, and is only 20% cheaper than HX Stadium Floor.

In general, I find that what I say I’m willing to pay for something when we are in the conjecture stage vs what I’m actually willing to get my wallet out for when push comes to shove are always wildly different.

I drooled over the QC Mini on release but every time I pondered it - $1400 is just more than I’m willing to spend on stuff that, for me, are at best convenience features.

Part of why I’ve decided to keep my Axe Fx III/FC12 combo is that I know once it’s gone, it’s gonna be reeeeeeally hard for me to muster up the gumption to drop $2+k on a replacement for it.

For me part of it is that 2014-2022 were pretty heady times. There were so many rapid improvements, so frequently, in what digital devices could do sonically that it was really exciting all the time.

Combine that with a free-er flowing used market and an economic outlook that was pretty optimistic, and … it was pretty easy to feel like you were at the amusement park with an all access pass to ride every ride just for the fun of it. I churned through an Atomic Amplifier 3, a Helix LT, an Atomic Amplifire Box, a Kemper, flipped for a powered Kemper, Stomp, tried going back to amps, Ax8, FM3, and loads of plugins. The kind of gear churn that seems peeeeeerfectly normal -- almost modest even -- around these parts, but when you meet someone at a party and they say "Oh, you play guitar? Me to!" and then they ask about what stuff you play you realize...you're a serious outlier in the real world.

Today - sonic improvements are minor, at most. While I've griped about various UI issues along the way...I've also been using it all long enough that I can get over those pretty quickly and don't have to use them nearly as much since I know what I like in each. The reality is that when I'm having to reach for my wallet...UI/various performance-related features are always going to be things that I have a hard time justifying. For my needs even when I AM playing with others, Scenes/Snapshots are at the "convenience" end of things, not the "must", which makes stuff like Showcase just seem chuckle-worthy in terms of "added value" to me.

Combine that with the fact that I have more worries about economic future than I did ten years ago, even though my family's earning potential, even accounting for inflation, is a good bit higher now than it was then, and my job is fairly secure. In the early COVID times my house more than doubled in value, which was super exciting in the moment, but on the back end of it now is more depressing than exhilarating -- yes, my "net worth" has gone up, and I have better access to borrowing if I need it, but the reality is that if we do find ourselves needing to move -- every other house in any area we'd be looking at has had the same discontinuous step increase in price and interest rates are a lot higher. It would be PAINFUL. That kind of uncertainty isn't a "let's get out the spreadsheet and see if I can afford to splurge on that new QC Mini" thing, its just a general "eh, I just don't feel up to spending that kind of money on fun right now" feeling. Especially when combined with looking back over the last ten years and the amount of gear I've tried out for fun...

Taking all of that in the totality, I don't see me getting a new greater-than-$1k modeler for a good while given how great the stuff I have now sounds, that it does everything I need it to, etc.,

Oddly, I am much more willing to entertain thoughts of a much more expensive guitar than I was ten years ago. Partly because I've gotten more stable in the types of guitars that interest me and hold onto them longer; partly because instruments feel a lot more like "long term investments" than a new digital box.

 

[mbenigni]

I had originally bought Stadium hoping to use showcase and all those cool tools for a project that naturally folded prior to all that stuff coming to fruition in Stadium. Now all I have are these stupid amp models!

I bought the OG Helix expecting it to solve all of my problems on stage (I mean, apart from my playing LOL) and the band in question promptly folded. I haven't set foot on a stage since.