Walk thru my latest fever dream/delusion of grandeur with me, won't you? (Red Vinter thread)

[JiveTurkey]

I just don't do cover tunes. Even when I played live a lot I was never in a cover band. It definitely makes it harder to play certain venues and no doubt making money can be more difficult, but I'd rather be a poor musician playing originals than making money playing covers full-time. Just the way I feel about it.

I get the motivations to do original material 100%. I just know once I got into a situation that generally speaking booked itself and paid great; it made it that much harder to "go back". Despite really wishing I was doing an original metal thing right now

 

[spawnofthesith]

I've never been able to drum up interest in covers at any point in my life. I feel bad about all the guitar lesson time I wasted as a teenager having my teacher tab out songs for me and then only ever learning a riff or two from there if that.

There's also so many pro level musicians doing pro level covers around here, I'd like to think I have a better chance at standing out with original music.

Pay? Well we get paid but it's not the most consistent and it's not buying us a yacht anytime soon for us gig money is fully reinvested in the band whether that's for merch, recording, photography, etc. etc. etc.


@JiveTurkey when we getting some more of that Vapormetal good good?

 

[FuzzyAce]

I get the motivations to do original material 100%. I just know once I got into a situation that generally speaking booked itself and paid great; it made it that much harder to "go back". Despite really wishing I was doing an original metal thing right now

I totally get that, and wouldn't disparage any musician for going that route. It's the diy attitude (stubborness) I have I guess. I'm like that with everything.

 

[JiveTurkey]

I've never been able to drum up interest in covers at any point in my life. I feel bad about all the guitar lesson time I wasted as a teenager having my teacher tab out songs for me and then only ever learning a riff or two from there if that.

There's also so many pro level musicians doing pro level covers around here, I'd like to think I have a better chance at standing out with original music.

Pay? Well we get paid but it's not the most consistent and it's not buying us a yacht anytime soon for us gig money is fully reinvested in the band whether that's for merch, recording, photography, etc. etc. etc.


@JiveTurkey when we getting some more of that Vapormetal good good?

I been chatting with Mike back and forth a bit. Things getting settled in, so on and so forth. It's a slow roll right now and that's ok. I have a couple of dudes I would love to do some local original stuff with but no drummer and that's a huge dealbreaker unfortunately.

 

[spawnofthesith]

I been chatting with Mike back and forth a bit. Things getting settled in, so on and so forth. It's a slow roll right now and that's ok. I have a couple of dudes I would love to do some local original stuff with but no drummer and that's a huge dealbreaker unfortunately.

Yeah I’ve been in my fair share of “bands” that ended up being dead ends unable to take flight, usually either due to a lack of drummer or bass player

 

[JiveTurkey]

Yeah I’ve been in my fair share of “bands” that ended up being dead ends unable to take flight, usually either due to a lack of drummer or bass player

It only gets worse in this regard as you get older

 

[Bruce]

Little derail addition.

I am going to be super hypocritical here, too. So note that up front

The songs your band and my band play had all sorts of groups of people who gave up their free time to sit in a jam room and hash out song ideas. What's weird for me (and not sure what my overarching point is; if I am being honest):

When did we get to a point where we are automatically going "oh, your songs are going to suck. I guarantee it" and stop the idea of forming original bands? If it's not a financial question or monetary need we are pursuing in the cover direction; why does it matter? Killer riffs get written all the time if you let them; you just have to channel them into a song. Which is admittedly difficult. And where I fall flat as an original band guy. Not enough of a musician pool doing it aka "wait; your song does suck!"


Just a thought I had the other day. Maybe what positive attitude I have jumped the shark a while back? Just seems like any sort original action anymore is bad modern rock or singer songwriter crap and neither holds any interest for me whatsoever

Note in my post I was interested enough to not tell them no outright. They lacked the technology or the willingness to get ideas going without a 20+ dollar 1+hr commute in one of the most congested cities in the world, aside from the lack of my work availability potentially costing me hundreds of dollars a week.

I’m just not willing to do that simply because people want to work like it is still 1982. My answer remains send me your ideas, let me add my ideas. Let’s do this for months until we have songs we like, THEN maybe rehearse those songs in prep of a recording or gig or something. It is 2023, if you dont have a basic computer, a basic interface and a basic DAW, you just cant be considered serious. One HUGE, MAJOR artist I know records on a laptop thru a modeler literally at his kitchen table and sends work all over the world. It isnt hard. Im just not willing to pick up the slack for people who refuse to do this kind of thing.

I guess it isnt social for me. I get the hang. A few beers and a few tunes. I have friends I haven’t seen in forever because who has the time? Music wise, I want to get down to business, get the work done and keep moving.

 

[JiveTurkey]

Note in my post I was interested enough to not tell them no outright. They lacked the technology or the willingness to get ideas going without a 20+ dollar 1+hr commute in one of the most congested cities in the world, aside from the lack of my work availability potentially costing me hundreds of dollars a week.

I’m just not willing to do that simply because people want to work like it is still 1982. My answer remains send me your ideas, let me add my ideas. Let’s do this for months until we have songs we like, THEN maybe rehearse those songs in prep of a recording or gig or something. It is 2023, if you dont have a basic computer, a basic interface and a basic DAW, you just cant be considered serious. One HUGE, MAJOR artist I know records on a laptop thru a modeler literally at his kitchen table and sends work all over the world. It isnt hard. Im just not willing to pick up the slack for people who refuse to do this kind of thing.

I guess it isnt social for me. I get the hang. A few beers and a few tunes. I have friends I haven’t seen in forever because who has the time? Music wise, I want to get down to business, get the work done and keep moving.

I get it. Especially in an area your size. Certainly. I know on my end, even though its 2023; the requirement for needing to do it via file sharing would pretty much kill it dead

 

[Iron1]

Having done both, the in-person and the file sharing, the in-person is radically better... for me at least. I get that real-time synergy that happens when jamming that just can't be replicated by file sharing. But, I get that's what works for me and I'm totally ok if that doesn't work for someone else.

I think what makes a great song is that synergy, taking something that's good and turning into something amazing because different people are working it at the same time. So much music these days is so sterile feeling, which I've come to believe has a lot to do with the influence of virtual tech. I mean, rock/metal bands that cancel gigs cause a laptop got stolen? No thanks. Playing to click tracks, or worse basically karaokeing your own music? Also, hard pass.

As to the play my own stuff versus someone elses, I want the influence of others on what I'm writing. I want "my" music to become "our" music. But, based solely on past experiences, playing well is a different skillset than writing well and while I've found dozens and dozens of guys to jam with over the years who played well, the guys who wrote well I can count on less than 2 hands. Not to say I'm some amazing composer, but I know how to write what I want to play and people seem to dig it... in the end, though, again, hoping that "my" turns into "ours" to get that synergy that takes a song places no one single person can get them to go.

 

[Bruce]

I’ve also been a victim of original bands that want their cake and eat it too. You can swing the bag of balls and make all the decisions, but dont tell me at the end of the night you only took in 16 bucks at the door and hand me 4 of it. YOUR band, YOU make the decisions and YOU pay the bills. Thats the cost of having people chase YOUR vision. I’m entirely fine with being an employee. I actually prefer it. Meet my minimum and I’m good. I’ll write for you, play it the way you want me to or play whatever the last guy wrote. No complaints.

OUR band, I’m making decisions too and we’d probably make more than 16 bucks at the door (because for starters, we wouldn’t take door deals). It cant be “our band” when it’s time to split the money, but everything before that you call the shots. I dont/wont roll that way.

 

[Iron1]

I’ve also been a victim of original bands that want their cake and eat it too. You can swing the bag of balls and make all the decisions, but dont tell me at the end of the night you only took in 16 bucks at the door and hand me 4 of it. YOUR band, YOU make the decisions and YOU pay the bills. Thats the cost of having people chase YOUR vision. I’m entirely fine with being an employee. I actually prefer it. Meet my minimum and I’m good. I’ll write for you, play it the way you want me to or play whatever the last guy wrote. No complaints.

OUR band, I’m making decisions too and we’d probably make more than 16 bucks at the door (because for starters, we wouldn’t take door deals). It cant be “our band” when it’s time to split the money, but everything before that you call the shots. I dont/wont roll that way.

That I totally get. It's either "our band" or it's work-for-hire. There is no middle ground on that.

 

[JiveTurkey]

I want the influence of others on what I'm writing. I want "my" music to become "our" music. But, based solely on past experiences, playing well is a different skillset than writing well and while I've found dozens and dozens of guys to jam with over the years who played well, the guys who wrote well I can count on less than 2 hands.

All of this. Excellent points.

 

[spawnofthesith]

Having done both, the in-person and the file sharing, the in-person is radically better... for me at least. I get that real-time synergy that happens when jamming that just can't be replicated by file sharing. But, I get that's what works for me and I'm totally ok if that doesn't work for someone else.

I think what makes a great song is that synergy, taking something that's good and turning into something amazing because different people are working it at the same time. So much music these days is so sterile feeling, which I've come to believe has a lot to do with the influence of virtual tech. I mean, rock/metal bands that cancel gigs cause a laptop got stolen? No thanks. Playing to click tracks, or worse basically karaokeing your own music? Also, hard pass.

As to the play my own stuff versus someone elses, I want the influence of others on what I'm writing. I want "my" music to become "our" music. But, based solely on past experiences, playing well is a different skillset than writing well and while I've found dozens and dozens of guys to jam with over the years who played well, the guys who wrote well I can count on less than 2 hands. Not to say I'm some amazing composer, but I know how to write what I want to play and people seem to dig it... in the end, though, again, hoping that "my" turns into "ours" to get that synergy that takes a song places no one single person can get them to go.

I'm with ya except for the click track part


We do a significant amount of live looping. Free balled it without for the first 8 months or so of gigging but it's a huge improvement with. 15-40% of our shows depending on the gig are improvised as well so I disagree with the notion that it takes away the opportunity for in room energy and spontaneity

 

[Bruce]

We have a somewhat local act I’ve been watching the train wreck unfold. The band “manager” (read: MOM, literally) pays people they HAVE to (read: demo producer, waaaaay more than they should have), while the musicians make either nothing or next to nothing to be a part of a cringeworthy train wreck.

Now, my cover band at times can also be a cringeworthy train wreck, but it’s always worth my while with the money. Why would anyone chase someone else’s dream for free? Just to play on a stage? I place more value in my time and my talent (whatever level it may be) than that. I’m not the best player by any means, but if you call me for a gig and we meet a price, I’m learning your set the best I can, showing up on time, sober, all my shit is going to work, I’m not going to piss anyone off in the venue and lose the room for you and do my best to assure a successful show. Originals or covers. I prefer to work this way.

An original band? If anyone ever calls me for one again, before I hear anything I want to know what the business plan is and how much the band has in reserves or what the financial backing is. Getting “signed” and “making it” at my age are a pipe dream so what’s the end game here? Play for wives and girlfriends on a Wednesday night after months of work? Tell me now so I can pass.

Then I want to hear and see the band. If I dont think I’m a good fit or dont think it can sell, I’m passing.

So I guess the odds of me “joining” an original band are slim to none. Some people have deep pockets and dont mind paying others to chase the dream. It’s YOUR dream, so you need to believe in yourself that you’re leading this band into a profitable situation. I dont have to believe in you to do it, but I do have to be otherwise compensated.

Unless you’re david Koresh, maybe.

 

[Bruce]

I'm with ya except for the click track part


We do a significant amount of live looping. Free balled it without for the first 8 months or so of gigging but it's a huge improvement with. 15-40% of our shows depending on the gig are improvised as well so I disagree with the notion that it takes away the opportunity for in room energy and spontaneity

Half our set is to tracks. Haven’t had a keyboard player in a year and we are all the better for it.

 

[Iron1]

So I guess the odds of me “joining” an original band are slim to none. Some people have deep pockets and dont mind paying others to chase the dream. It’s YOUR dream, so you need to believe in yourself that you’re leading this band into a profitable situation. I dont have to believe in you to do it, but I do have to be otherwise compensated.

I'd say this is where we diverge a bit. I don't create music to make money, I create music to create. People pay huge amounts of money these days to chase whatever passion they have, be it gym ratting, rock climbing, antique collecting, power sports, whatever. My passion is making and performing music. If I break even, I'm way ahead of the curve.

For you, it's a business transaction. For me, it's a path to soul care and sanity. And, neither of us is wrong.

 

[Bruce]

I'd say this is where we diverge a bit. I don't create music to make money, I create music to create. People pay huge amounts of money these days to chase whatever passion they have, be it gym ratting, rock climbing, antique collecting, power sports, whatever. My passion is making and performing music. If I break even, I'm way ahead of the curve.

For you, it's a business transaction. For me, it's a path to soul care and sanity. And, neither of us is wrong.

We dont entirely diverge.

I keep a rather costly production desk in my home that seems to be growing every other week. I will likely never see the financial return on this and I’m fine with that. This is for me and my personal endeavors though. 9 times out of 10, it’s a few midi loops that go nowhere and I delete. Other times it’s a song I’ll produce and mix. This is for my sole enjoyment and creative outlet and it’ll never make me any money. When I DO decide to do something for real (in about a year), I have no problem paying talent to collaborate on this stuff. i insist on it, actually. I dont work for free and wouldn’t ask anyone else to.

I also took it upon myself to produce my cover bands videos, completely free. I wanted the challenge. I also produce my bands tracks we use to play live.

When i make music for me, it’s for me and it makes me happy. So we both do that outside of financial consideration for the most part. Where we differ is inviting other people into this benefit. I’ve been taken advantage of one too many times to continue to give it away. It turns into a rape of my time and my skill sets. Worse when its for friends and I cant get out of it without damaging the friendship.

 

[la szum]

What an utterly depressing turn taken in this thread. Thanks, guys!

 

[la szum]

Do you @Iron1 . I am cheering you on from afar.

 

[Iron1]

What an utterly depressing turn taken in this thread. Thanks, guys!

Just wait til @DrewJD82 shows up with the rimshot selfies...