** UPDATED ** Plexi and Fender Liquid Profiles vs Plexi and Fender Generic-Legacy Profiles -> Demo Plexi @ Post #1 and Fender @ Post #46

[DLC86]

The Kemper manual and CK on the Kemper forum basically say distortion comes from the power amp in vintage amps and the preamp in modern amps. So the LP method is to put the modeled tonestack pre or post their distortion stage.

So over-semplification of how an amp works

 

[Sascha Franck]

No, they’re not doing that.

Ok, that's quite a "loss" then. I mean, what I'm often doing with dual EQs is to shape the drive characteristics with some pre-drive mid boost/cut while using post-drive bass and treble to balance everything. Works nicely and IMO would be a great thing to have straight in a tone stack.

 

[yeky83]

So over-semplification of how an amp works

Yeah, but good ‘nuff for a lot of amps I’d think. It’s in line with the FAS suggestion to just put spring reverbs before the amp block since the preamp in vintage amps is mostly linear.

 

[BenIfin]

Which begs the question…using the “wrong” tone stack could be interesting.

I guess i find out in a few weeks when it finally ships

Other than 2 and 8 i could find use for all.
2/8 fuck they sound broken.

Hey Ed !

I.m.h.o ..... you *could* sort of do something with 4 and 6 ..... but 2 and 8 are totally *borked*.

F.w.i.w .... I've done similar tests with quite a few of the other Amps from the official LP packs vs the generic stack ..... and the differences between LP response across the full range vs generic response across the full range are just a stark / huge.

I have messed with changing Tonestacks .... you can get some nice and sometimes subtle differences / variations .... cool to do ... but for the main I've stuck with the correct Tonestack.

I noticed you [seem] to have a KPA on the way (?) ..... I'll be keen to hear what you also think of the ability of LP's to respond across the whole range compared to the generic stack.

The Kemper isn't the King of 1:1 fixed/static profile / captures accuracy anymore ... so if you want 1:1 fixed/static Capturing accuracy ... grab a Tonex ... or a Toneocracy Pedal when it eventually comes out

For me though .... I dont give f%ck about "accuracy" .... if I did, I wouldn't use any digital "amp modeler / copying device" ... I'd pick my real Amp of choice [DC30] and just use and tweak it to preference :) ... or alternately, use Tonex and leave the captures unchanged and do all my modifications pre and post the Amp .... which I personally found to be extremely unsatisfying / "not at all like a tweaking a real Amp".

But as I said above .... KPA LPíng is the only game in town if you want to make a profile/capture and use that profile/capture and tweak it as if it were a real Amp ..... as long as the Amp you use/profile is in the current list of 44 ! :)

Is it perfect ? ..... no ...... but its really pretty f%cking good and very satisfying and "real" to use ... and nothing else [so far] does it.

All the best,
Ben

 

[0XI0]

Let me ask something just for clarification: Liquid Profiling from how I understand it is completely happening "after the fact", right? Or are there any changes in the actual profiling process as well that I'm not aware of?

u know the BMTP controls that have always been there to tweak a profile? with liquid profile you can pick what "tonestack" it uses, so now those BMTP frequencies are centered at the right Hz to match the amp type.

 

[BenIfin]

PART 2 - FENDER DELUXE NORMAL CHANNEL CLEAN LIQUID PROFILE -vs- GENERIC PROFILE

Hi all !

** AGAIN PLEASE NOTE: I don't have my free Soundcloud anymore so used www.hearthis.at **

Again ....I'll keep this short and to the point.

(a) NAM / Tonex are more accurate at static profiles than the KPA .... no debate ... nothing in this demo changes that

(b) C.K *never* said L.P would make the static/legacy Profiles more accurate .... no debate

(c) What C.K *did* say was that the L.P Process would make KPA Profiles respond more-amp like / more authentically across the range of Amp Adjustments.

(d) Purpose of this demo is to demonstrate (c)

(e) Purpose of this demo is absolutely not to try and change your mind about how great or sh%t KPA Legacy or L.P's are

The Profile / Clip Details

=> this is one of Guido Bungenstock's stock **very clean** Fender Deluxe Normal Channel ground-up new L.P from his official L.P Pack that was released for free when OS10 came out
=> this time the 8 x Clips only go for about 1 min 40 secs in total
=> it contains 8 short clips of the same basic G/C/D Rhythm
=> all settings were identical as below with the only differences being changing the "LP" Amp Channel from Fender Deluxe Normal to Generic as per below
=> no other edits of any kind were made

** AGAIN ... Please note:- I left the Cab Block settings complexly flat ...no low/high shifts ..... no character ... no pure cab .... no low / high cuts .... as I wanted to keep the example as "apples to apples" as I could

Clip Order
=> Clip 1 ..... all settings at 9.00am LP
=> Clip 2 ..... all settings at 9.00am GENERIC
=> Clip 3 ..... all settings at 12.00 LP
=> Clip 4 ..... all settings at 12.00 GENERIC
=> Clip 5 ..... all settings at 3.00pm LP
=> Clip 6 ..... all settings at 3.00pm GENERIC
=> Clip 7 ..... all settings at 10 LP
=> Clip 8 ..... all settings at 10 GENERIC

My as-objective-opinion-as-I-can-be:- ..... and yes ..... this is Amp only ..... no drives or fuzz's were used :)

=> the 4 x LP clips .... 1, 3, 5 and 7 all hold-together pretty much as you would expect and sound pretty "real-amp'y" [ "authentic" ] at all settings - all very useable and nice actually.

=> the 4 x GENERIC clips .... 2, 4, 6 and 8 .... Clip 2 [9.00] is good/fine .... Clip 4 [12.00] is comparatively sh%t ..... Clip 6 [3.00] is comparatively really really sh%t .... Clip 8 [Full] is comparatively w.t.a.f is going on here f%cked-up why am I doing this

Again .... keen to hear what others "hear" - as always - turn it up loud via your usual monitors or "FRFR" rig ... although start low as Clips 4, 6 and 8 are really bad.

FENDR DLX NORM

Listen to FENDR DLX NORM by Ben Ifin on hearthis.at | Rock

hearthis.at

Ben

 

[Ed DeGenaro]

PART 2 - FENDER DELUXE NORMAL CHANNEL CLEAN LIQUID PROFILE -vs- GENERIC PROFILE

Hi all !

** AGAIN PLEASE NOTE: I don't have my free Soundcloud anymore so used www.hearthis.at **

Again ....I'll keep this short and to the point.

(a) NAM / Tonex are more accurate at static profiles than the KPA .... no debate ... nothing in this demo changes that

(b) C.K *never* said L.P would make the static/legacy Profiles more accurate .... no debate

(c) What C.K *did* say was that the L.P Process would make KPA Profiles respond more-amp like / more authentically across the range of Amp Adjustments.

(d) Purpose of this demo is to demonstrate (c)

(e) Purpose of this demo is absolutely not to try and change your mind about how great or sh%t KPA Legacy or L.P's are

The Profile / Clip Details

=> this is one of Guido Bungenstock's stock **very clean** Fender Deluxe Normal Channel ground-up new L.P from his official L.P Pack that was released for free when OS10 came out
=> this time the 8 x Clips only go for about 1 min 40 secs in total
=> it contains 8 short clips of the same basic G/C/D Rhythm
=> all settings were identical as below with the only differences being changing the "LP" Amp Channel from Fender Deluxe Normal to Generic as per below
=> no other edits of any kind were made

** AGAIN ... Please note:- I left the Cab Block settings complexly flat ...no low/high shifts ..... no character ... no pure cab .... no low / high cuts .... as I wanted to keep the example as "apples to apples" as I could

Clip Order
=> Clip 1 ..... all settings at 9.00am LP
=> Clip 2 ..... all settings at 9.00am GENERIC
=> Clip 3 ..... all settings at 12.00 LP
=> Clip 4 ..... all settings at 12.00 GENERIC
=> Clip 5 ..... all settings at 3.00pm LP
=> Clip 6 ..... all settings at 3.00pm GENERIC
=> Clip 7 ..... all settings at 10 LP
=> Clip 8 ..... all settings at 10 GENERIC

My as-objective-opinion-as-I-can-be:- ..... and yes ..... this is Amp only ..... no drives or fuzz's were used :)

=> the 4 x LP clips .... 1, 3, 5 and 7 all hold-together pretty much as you would expect and sound pretty "real-amp'y" [ "authentic" ] at all settings - all very useable and nice actually.

=> the 4 x GENERIC clips .... 2, 4, 6 and 8 .... Clip 2 [9.00] is good/fine .... Clip 4 [12.00] is comparatively sh%t ..... Clip 6 [3.00] is comparatively really really sh%t .... Clip 8 [Full] is comparatively w.t.a.f is going on here f%cked-up why am I doing this

Again .... keen to hear what others "hear" - as always - turn it up loud via your usual monitors or "FRFR" rig ... although start low as Clips 4, 6 and 8 are really bad.

FENDR DLX NORM

Listen to FENDR DLX NORM by Ben Ifin on hearthis.at | Rock

hearthis.at

Ben

4 6 8 are brutal on the ears.
8 is something not even a mother would love.

What i think is trippy are the waveforms associated with them

did you re-amp or play it 8 times?

 

[BenIfin]

4 6 8 are brutal on the ears.
8 is something not even a mother would love.

What i think is trippy are the waveforms associated with them

did you re-amp or play it 8 times?

Yep ... even in Audacity which is what I recorded them in .... the Waveforms for 1,3,5 and 7 are perfectly normal .... the Waveforms for 4,6 and 8 are ultra-compacted with little to no meaningful peaks or troughs and very weird overall shapes

Embarrassingly I don't really know how to re-amp so played the parts as close as I could each time ... same neck position same intensity etc... as close and identical as I could.

In my opinion and hands on experience ..... having used an "old" Kemper for years ..... and having "deep dived" into Tonex from Day 1 for a sh%t-ton of time .....

...... when it comes to "capturing" the full range / "authentic" range response of the real Amp being profiled ... to describe the difference as night and day, when comparing a LP's vs a Legacy Profiles ...... is an insult to the whole concept of night and day :)

Yep ...... Kemper have lost the 1:1 Accuracy crown for fixed/static profiles/captures ..... no question .... and if that is your Jam .... thats awesome ....... ignore everything I have written and uploaded into this thread ... its all good !

However ..... i.m.h.o ... and much more importantly .... this is far, far, far outweighed by the massive gains in tweakability of a profile/capture** across the full Gain and full EQ range of the Amp being profiled that can be tweaked to respond "authentically" like the real Amp ...... not saying its perfect ..... but its a fu%king massive leap forward in terms of tweaking Profiles like you would the real Amp being Profiled ..... something most of us thought would never be do-able.

Tonex and NAM and Tonocracy etc... are all awesome ..... but they cant do this.

Ben

** - provided the Amp being L / Profiled is on the current list of 44 supported Amp Channels :)

 

[Sascha Franck]

u know the BMTP controls that have always been there to tweak a profile? with liquid profile you can pick what "tonestack" it uses, so now those BMTP frequencies are centered at the right Hz to match the amp type.

I'm aware of that. But that doesn't seem to affect the baseline capture.

 

[BenIfin]

u know the BMTP controls that have always been there to tweak a profile? with liquid profile you can pick what "tonestack" it uses, so now those BMTP frequencies are centered at the right Hz to match the amp type.

I'm aware of that. But that doesn't seem to affect the baseline capture.

Not at all a fan of quoting myself, but I addressed this in dot-point's (2), (3), (4), (5) and (6) in Post #8 of this Thread.

This info was taken from the Kemper Official forum from responses by C.K and the mods there to questions from myself and many others.

Ben

 

[Enchilada Jones]

..... Kemper have lost the 1:1 Accuracy crown for fixed/static profiles/captures ..... no question ....
… However ..... it’s a fu%king massive leap forward in terms of

I have no scientific data to back my agreement with this. I just know it never occurred to me as I played through one that Kemper was inherently less ‘accurate’ than anything else that models or profiles. As long as you seek out a good profile ( not hard to find).
I trust there are ‘charts and graphs..with circles and arrows on each one’ to prove it.

But what I often thought was ‘don’t change the tone stack or gain’ because it is a losing proposition. With LP it’s like they fixed that thing I didn’t like.

 

[BenIfin]

I have no scientific data to back my agreement with this. I just know it never occurred to me as I played through one that Kemper was inherently less ‘accurate’ than anything else that models or profiles. As long as you seek out a good profile ( not hard to find).
I trust there are ‘charts and graphs..with circles and arrows on each one’ to prove it.

But what I often thought was ‘don’t change the tone stack or gain’ because it is a losing proposition. With LP it’s like they fixed that thing I didn’t like.

Yep. Spot on. Yep ... lots of graphs with circles, arrows and "shocked" expression emoji's :)

There is very clear data from well done null tests that the Kemper is not as accurate as Tonex or NAM ...... for me ..... can I hear / feel that when I'm playing (?) .... do I care about such small differences (?) ...... no ....... -but- ... if my aim is to get "as perfect a copy" of my own rig as possible ... then I'd go Tonex .... even though NAM - in software might be a %1 or %2 "null-ier" .. at this level of accuracy we are really splitting the "guitar atom"

But again, Y/T is awash with Kemper v NAM v Tonex videos *without* null-tests provided and to my simple ears they are all pretty much bang-on ....playing them back "blindly" its hard to believe anyone would be able to consistently pick the difference 10/10 times ... even if you do it 5/10 thats as accurate as guessing :) ..... but this is all just me :)

And yep ...... LP's have gone a very, very, very ultra-f%cking long way to providing a profile that can be tweaked and respond "like" its real Amp.

As I've said above ....... in terms of tweaking an Amp copy like its real amp source, the Kemper with LP's is the only game in town.

And if its Patent is a good as C.K slyly suggested in his Tone Junk interview ... that aint going to change any time soon.

All the best,
Ben

 

[Deadpan]

Which begs the question…using the “wrong” tone stack could be interesting.

I guess i find out in a few weeks when it finally ships

Definitely is, even on old studio profiles.

 

[Deadpan]

The Kemper does allow you to move the generic amp's EQ either pre or post distortion in the amp section, with the default being post. I would assume the LP tone stack is placed wherever it is located on the real amp. So, this could definitely have an effect on the distortion characteristics of the base profile.

You can move the liquid stack also.

 

[crispsandwich]

I've had my Kemper for about 10 years and tbh liquid profiling completely opened the profiles up for me. Not only does changing the amp model to a LP make the tones better (they seem to remove the low-mid thing that dominated so many profiles), but it makes them more tweakable. It has been an incredible update. Really hoping for LPs of Mesa Mark series amps at some point!

 

[yeky83]

Not only does changing the amp model to a LP make the tones better (they seem to remove the low-mid thing that dominated so many profiles)

 

[Mongillo19]

I've had my Kemper for about 10 years and tbh liquid profiling completely opened the profiles up for me. Not only does changing the amp model to a LP make the tones better (they seem to remove the low-mid thing that dominated so many profiles), but it makes them more tweakable. It has been an incredible update. Really hoping for LPs of Mesa Mark series amps at some point!

I think you were in the other thread about ordering an axe fx. Think that will replace the kemper or will both work in harmony

 

[crispsandwich]

I think you were in the other thread about ordering an axe fx. Think that will replace the kemper or will both work in harmony

I have both and they work in harmony tbh. Tbh now that the Kemper has liquid profiles and USB audio, they are much closer and harder to choose between. If Kemper improved their drive selection, it would be closer still (Kemper Drive is not as amazing as their other updated effects IMO - great quality but a much slimmer selection of models, which in reality are just settings of the same model). The Kemper Fuzz has the same issue, though I find their fuzz 'models' to have a much more distinct character. The reverbs and delays are just as good, and better in some cases, than the Axe FX.

 

[Ed DeGenaro]

@BenIfin
Dude, thank you for beeing the kemper fan boi you are. (Well you and the guy that wrote If God Was One Of Us who also was a big part if this and is a Kemper endorser.
Im digging the player way mire than I thought I would or the pre-LP profilers i used

Also all the perceived shortcomings not an issue for my use case.
So it seems im literally their target audience.

Not happy the power supply was DOA and it took and extra week from what it said on my order confirmation they made a new friend here.

 

[BenIfin]

@BenIfin
Dude, thank you for beeing the kemper fan boi you are. (Well you and the guy that wrote If God Was One Of Us who also was a big part if this and is a Kemper endorser.
Im digging the player way mire than I thought I would or the pre-LP profilers i used

Also all the perceived shortcomings not an issue for my use case.
So it seems im literally their target audience.

Not happy the power supply was DOA and it took and extra week from what it said on my order confirmation they made a new friend here.

Hey !

Great to hear :) ... apart of course for the P/S issue ... that sort of thing is just such a p.i.t.a and should just *not* happen in 2024 !

I don't know if the Player comes with any LP's ... and if it does ... whether or not they have been done "properly" and just had the "appropriate" stack inserted ..... so ..... in case you haven't already done so, I would *really* encourage you to download the 3 x Official LP Packs launched in Aug 2023 ..... they are the first 3 links in this D/L link here => scroll down a bit and you will see 1 x Rigbusters Pack, 1 x Guidorist Pack and 1 x Michael Britt Pack.

If you are using the Player, it wont import the EFX slots correctly, but the Amp Block and Cab will come over so you can mess with ground-up new LP's .... of course you may well already have done this :)

Tweaking these LP's and the sound is just glorious ...... not bad for a +12 year old unit with no A.I in it :)

All the best,
Ben