** UPDATED ** Plexi and Fender Liquid Profiles vs Plexi and Fender Generic-Legacy Profiles -> Demo Plexi @ Post #1 and Fender @ Post #46

BenIfin

BenIfin

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PART 1 - PLEXI LIQUID PROFILE -vs- GENERIC PROFILE

See Part 2 - FENDER DELUXE NORMAL AMP @ Post #46 in this Thread

Hi all !

** PLEASE NOTE: I don't have my free Soundcloud anymore so used www.hearthis.at **

I'll keep this short and to the point.

(a) NAM / Tonex are more accurate at static profiles than the KPA .... no debate ... nothing in this demo changes that

(b) C.K *never* said L.P would make the static/legacy Profiles more accurate .... no debate

(c) What C.K *did* say was that the L.P Process would make KPA Profiles respond more-amp like / more authentically across the range of Amp Adjustments.

(d) Purpose of this demo is to demonstrate (c)

(e) Purpose of this demo is absolutely not to try and change your mind about how great or sh%t KPA Legacy or L.P's are

The Profile / Clip Details

=> this is one of Mbritt's stock low gain Marshall Plexi ground-up new L.P from his official L.P Pack that was released for free when OS10 came out
=> the 8 x Clips only go for about 2 min 20 secs in total
=> it contains 8 short clips of the same basic G/C/D Rhythm
=> all settings were identical as below with the only differences being changing the "LP" Amp Channel from Plexi to Generic as per below ... for the L.P's the Bright Cap was set to 5 for all
=> no other edits of any kind were made

Clip Order
=> Clip 1 ..... all settings at 9.00am LP
=> Clip 2 ..... all settings at 9.00am GENERIC
=> Clip 3 ..... all settings at 12.00 LP
=> Clip 4 ..... all settings at 12.00 GENERIC
=> Clip 5 ..... all settings at 3.00pm LP
=> Clip 6 ..... all settings at 3.00pm GENERIC
=> Clip 7 ..... all settings at 10 LP
=> Clip 8 ..... all settings at 10 GENERIC

My as-objective-opinion-as-I-can-be:-

=> the 4 x LP clips .... 1, 3, 5 and 7 all hold-together pretty much as you would expect and sound pretty "real-amp'y" [ "authentic" ] at all settings

=> the 4 x GENERIC clips .... 2, 4, 6 and 8 .... Clip 2 [9.00] is comparatively pretty lifeless .... Clip 4 [12.00] is starting to comparatively sound not great ..... Clip 6 [3.00] is comparatively pretty sh%t .... Clip 8 [Full] is comparatively totally cluster-f%cked

Keen to hear what others "hear" - as always - turn it up loud via your usual monitors or "FRFR" rig

hearthis.at

LP vs GENERIC

Listen to LP vs GENERIC by Ben Ifin on hearthis.at | Rock
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Ben
 
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Sorry, first thing I thought of and was pissing myself laughing. It's nearly 5am here. Slept like shit. I'll check this out later on in the day!!
 
The generic ones seem to go from "too dull" to "sounds almost like the cab sim is off" whereas the Liquid Profiling ones remain more consistent.
 
Let me ask something just for clarification: Liquid Profiling from how I understand it is completely happening "after the fact", right? Or are there any changes in the actual profiling process as well that I'm not aware of?
 
Very interesting. So generic versus LP ... the LP's sound fuller and more lively, and more amp-like, for sure.

I don't like the tone overall though. Everything regardless of whether it is LP or not has this high-end scratchy thing going on that is just awful. I'm guessing that is because it is a Plexi. Be interested to do this kind of comparison with a better source amp and source profiler person manwomanthingymajig.

Would've loved to hear something palm-muted and high-gain.

I can't speak to any authenticity improvements, because we don't have a recording of the real amp as our control. If I had a Kemper here, I could do that test and make a video about it.
 
Sascha Franck said:
Let me ask something just for clarification: Liquid Profiling from how I understand it is completely happening "after the fact", right? Or are there any changes in the actual profiling process as well that I'm not aware of?
Click to expand...
I think there are changes aren't there? There's an extra step now where you set the positions of the knobs versus the real amp and choose your tonestack during the profiling process right?
 
laxu said:
The generic ones seem to go from "too dull" to "sounds almost like the cab sim is off" whereas the Liquid Profiling ones remain more consistent.
Click to expand...

Sascha Franck said:
Let me ask something just for clarification: Liquid Profiling from how I understand it is completely happening "after the fact", right? Or are there any changes in the actual profiling process as well that I'm not aware of?
Click to expand...

Orvillain said:
Very interesting. So generic versus LP ... the LP's sound fuller and more lively, and more amp-like, for sure.

I don't like the tone overall though. Everything regardless of whether it is LP or not has this high-end scratchy thing going on that is just awful. I'm guessing that is because it is a Plexi. Be interested to do this kind of comparison with a better source amp and source profiler person manwomanthingymajig.

Would've loved to hear something palm-muted and high-gain.

I can't speak to any authenticity improvements, because we don't have a recording of the real amp as our control. If I had a Kemper here, I could do that test and make a video about it.
Click to expand...

Orvillain said:
I think there are changes aren't there? There's an extra step now where you set the positions of the knobs versus the real amp and choose your tonestack during the profiling process right?
Click to expand...


Some points.

(1) => in terms of fixed/static snapshot Accuracy ..... that boat has sailed .... its NAM / TONEX ..... my OP and test has nothing to do with 1:1 static capturing accuracy

(2) => the actual "alien noise rumbling profiling signal stimulation process" itself is unchanged

(3) => *however* provided you are profiling a real amp that is on the current list of 44 Amp Channels you now load that "Amp Channel" first ..... ideally set it one of two ways .... (a) all EQ's at 12.00 and Gain on Full -or- (b) all EQ's at 12.00 and Gain on the maximum setting you are ever likely to use ....... or actually a third way (c) just dial the Amp in exactly as you would normally ....... (a) and (b) however give by far the most "authentic" Gain and EQ range response across the full range for the L.P

(4) => then during the "alien noise rumbling profiling signal stimulation process" the Kemper will "match" / "align" its Gain and EQ readings to the pre-loaded Amp Channel so it "knows" what to aim for

(5) => then refine as usual .... done

(6) => L.P *can* be applied after-the-fact .... ie: to an existing Legacy Profile -however- it must (i) be an Amp that is on the current list of 44 Amp Channels and (ii) you must know the exact real Amp settings used when you did the original profile ...... -however- ...... even then it wont be as accurate across the full Gain / EQ range as it is almost certain that your pre-existing real-amp Legacy Profile was not set up as per (a) or (b) in point (3) above

(7) => the high end scratchiness in this example is due to 2 things .... yep ... its a Plexi ... but also .... I left the Cab Block settings complexly flat ...no low/high shifts ..... no character ... no pure cab .... no low / high cuts .... as I wanted to keep the example as "apples to apples" as I could

(8) => I haven't had any real Tube Amps for years so couldn't use a "real amp" reference point **

** - this was pretty much the turning point for me ..... I was absolutely *loving* the Tonex in the loop of the Helix route ...... however I was encountering the exact same problem I had with the Kemper back in the day ........ very small Gain and EQ moves on the Tonex [and non-LP Kemper] were OK, but once I tried to tweak the capture/profile as if it were a real amp .. the integrity of the capture / profile sh%t itself very quickly ... the initial snapshots were fine ... but the tweaked settings just sounds not "right" => my simple way of describing it ... it was the exact reason I left the Kemper many moons ago .... and Tonex was no better in this regard

(9) => my whole / sole point was to highlight and "prove" that the new L.P process produces massively better and more "honest" / "authentic" amp-like responses across the full range of controls compared to the exact same profile that uses the old "generic" stack ... hence the reason I used 4 completely and drastically different Gain and EQ settings across the test ... to highlight the differences.

(10) => it was sheer co-incidence that C.K announced L.P when he did ... if not I would *still* be using a Tonex in the Loop of my [ex] Helix and [ex] GT1000

Anyway .... long-story-still-long ..... I only wanted to highlight just how much better and easier it is to tweak a LP like a real Amp ... compared to an old generic/legacy profile.

Why did I bother ? ..... well, I like the truth and honesty and credibility.

And there has been so much "LP's are b.s and are no different to legacy profiles and don't respond any different to legacy profiles" sh%t going around .... almost always as best as I can tell ... from people who have never used a Kemper or even tried a LP let alone compared tweaking a LP to tweaking a Legacy Profile.

Whether you think I have some idea of what I'm talking about, or am full of Kemper-loving-sh%t ...... the Kemper with its L.P process is ...as of Jan 05, 2024 ...... the "only show in town" ..... when it comes to a profiler or capture hardware or software that credibly / authentically tracks the capture-profile controls to respond like the real Amps controls.

Patents pending of course ;)

All the best,
Ben
 
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BenIfin said:
And there has been so much "LP's are b.s and are no different to legacy profiles and don't respond any different to legacy profiles" sh%t going around .... almost always as best as I can tell ... from people who have never used a Kemper or even tried a LP let alone compared tweaking a LP to tweaking a Legacy Profile.
Click to expand...
Who has been saying that?

I'm quite interested in LP's. If they would help close the gap between my real VH4 and the profile, I'd be interested in Kemper again.
 
Orvillain said:
I think there are changes aren't there? There's an extra step now where you set the positions of the knobs versus the real amp and choose your tonestack during the profiling process right?
Click to expand...
From what I've seen there are two ways to make a liquid profile - keep everything at 5 on the amp as that's the default kemper settings, or set the amp up in it's ideal settings, and then enter those into the kemper after the profile is captured.

Kemper say both methods are in theory identical, but they also say applying a liquid tonestack to an old profile doesn't change how it sounds/feels and it clearly does.
 
Orvillain said:
Who has been saying that?

I'm quite interested in LP's. If they would help close the gap between my real VH4 and the profile, I'd be interested in Kemper again.
Click to expand...

Certainly not you good SIr ! .... any person that despises homeopaths and chiropractors like I do has permanent life-long credibility in my little black book :)

But a "few" others around here .... and a boat-load of TGP-ers

I *was* actually going to post this at TOP ..... but simply pre-emptively knew I would not be able to stand the "avalanche of dumbness" that would inevitably ensue.

On a more serious note ... and not wanting to shoot myself in the foot ..... I *think* Kemper are going to keep their list of Amp Channels to a fairly conservative classic and boutique range .... I don't know whether / if they would add something like a VH4 stack (?) ...but who knows (?)

Ben
 
As far as I understand Profiler is basically an amp model ( or two? clean/dist ) with tons of parameters. What profiling does is setting those params up automagically so that the model output fits the incoming signal. Kemper BMT works as a generic post-EQ like stack while the actual amp model tone stack would probably be more like an advanced parametric EQ so .. not very user friendly.
I think what LP does is replace the post tonestack, generic eq with a facade - simpler interface - to the actual model internal EQ tweaked to match the specific amp tonestack that is selected.

Tonex works much the same way but rather programatically setting those parameters i.e. by automatic as seen by the user but programmed by hand, it has orders of magnitude more parameters and it's all done by machine learning.
 
BenIfin said:
On a more serious note ... and not wanting to shoot myself in the foot ..... I *think* Kemper are going to keep their list of Amp Channels to a fairly conservative classic and boutique range .... I don't know whether / if they would add something like a VH4 stack (?) ...but who knows (?)
Click to expand...
I wouldn't be surprised if you could approximate by borrowing the tonestack from something else.

For example if you have something that shares plexi DNA, you might be able to get away with using a plexi tonestack etc.

It might not be exact, but I'd wager it would sound better than the generic tonestack.
 
adam said:
I wouldn't be surprised if you could approximate by borrowing the tonestack from something else.

For example if you have something that shares plexi DNA, you might be able to get away with using a plexi tonestack etc.

It might not be exact, but I'd wager it would sound better than the generic tonestack.
Click to expand...
Which begs the question…using the “wrong” tone stack could be interesting.

I guess i find out in a few weeks when it finally ships
 
JiveTurkey said:
Thoughts and prayers for that one time you went to an idiot who cracked your back wrong.
Click to expand...

He may not be that far off… the first chiropractor I went to gave me pamphlets and a lecture about how the spinal cord drives basically everything for the body and that if I would begin coming to them multiple times a week for adjustments he could probably cure most of the things that ail me including seasonal allergies…. I just had him fix the spasm that I was there to get relief for and decided not to run an expensive experiment to see if he could cure all of life’s other inconveniences, so I’ll just have to wonder now if he’s a quack or if I missed my opportunity for immortality.

Second and third chiropractors were about the same. Quackery aside, they were able to take care of the muscle spasms with that handy electric shock machine so I’ll return again should I ever need to, tinfoil hat strapped on tight to block out the other nonsense.

D
 
Ed DeGenaro said:
Which begs the question…using the “wrong” tone stack could be interesting.

I guess i find out in a few weeks when it finally ships
Click to expand...
It was for me - I had some recto profiles based on red modern. When I applied the recto red tonestack, it felt better but had the stereo typical red flub and fizz, I switched to recto orange tonestack, and the mids came up, the flub disappears and the top end lost the fizz - to me it was the perfect balance between red and orange.

YMMV obvs.
 
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